Don't Do Nothing

[00:00:00] Wil: He lived there when the Berlin Wall came down That were literally being held behind barbed wire and fences and landmines and guards in towers. Normal, average, everyday people stood up for their human rights and shoulder to shoulder- 

[00:00:12] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:00:12] Wil: and said, “We are powerful. We will not be denied.” 

[00:00:14] Brad: I had the information that the UN was bad.

[00:00:16] Wil: Everyone on the planet has 30 human rights. Not so many people know about them. What does it mean to be a human being? Like, what do we value? What do we care about? What’s important to us? Mm-hmm. I’m a huge believer in people- Yeah … and in educating people. And if you educate people, if you give them helpful, correct information, most people will do great things with it.

[00:00:34] Aaron: Our generation is so hooked on porn. 

[00:00:37] Wil: You need to be able to hear as a young man, there’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not guilty. You’re not a terrible person. You’re not evil for this. This just isn’t good for you. All 

[00:00:46] Brad: right. Welcome to another episode of the Don’t Do Nothing podcast. Today we have a certified stud as a guest.

[00:00:54] Brad: Mr. Will Seabrook. Okay, so a little bit about Will. He grew up in Germany, and he lived [00:01:00] there when the Berlin Wall came down, which is pretty amazing. We’re gonna get into that. Uh, he’s had several record deals. He was a recording artist for some time. Uh, his songs have been played in over 150 TV shows and movies, uh, which by the way, I love music that’s like in movies for some reason.

[00:01:19] Brad: Mm-hmm. It’s like the combination has such an impact. He’s a world traveler, human rights activist, and he is active. Uh, he’s done some amazing stuff. Has spoken at the UN on human rights. He’s the recipient of the Presidential Volunteer Service Award, uh, back in 2018, and he’s won a slew of telly’s with his production company, and he’s been on the Inc…

[00:01:39] Brad: His company has been on the Inc. 5000 list six times. That’s two different companies. Will, damn, dude. Well said. Look at you. Welcome. Will 

[00:01:49] Aaron: said. 

[00:01:50] Wil: Will 

[00:01:52] Brad: said. 

[00:01:53] Wil: It’s nice to hang with you guys. 

[00:01:54] Brad: Yeah, likewise, man. Likewise. 

[00:01:55] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:01:55] Brad: Okay, so you’re, uh, you’re a big human rights guy. You, you just did a big [00:02:00] trip, uh, for a amazing human rights cause.

[00:02:02] Brad: What was the thing that got you into human rights? ‘Cause it’s, uh, it’s a thing that I think a lot of people talk about, but you’re actually active in doing- work in the human rights field actively, like all the time Yeah. 

[00:02:16] Wil: Well, like almost everything in my life, I sort of Forrest Gumped my way into it. So, uh-

[00:02:20] Wil: I had never heard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. So everyone on the planet has 30 human rights. Not so many people know about them. So if you ask the average person, “Do you think people should have basic human rights?” You know, unless you’re stroking your white cat in your volcanic lair, you’re gonna be like, “Yeah, I think that’s a good idea.”

[00:02:39] Wil: It’s like, “Well, great. Well, name, name 10 of them.” 

[00:02:41] Aaron: Mm-hmm. 

[00:02:41] Wil: You know, people, they like the right to some food or something. You know, it’s like, it’s, everybody struggles very much including me- Yeah … right, when I first approached- Mm-hmm … this subject. It’s like you understand the sort of basic concept of it, but people don’t know that this existed.

[00:02:55] Wil: So basically after World War II, we’d had two world wars in a row, right? Within [00:03:00] a v- you know, just not even a generation, a separation, right? Mm-hmm. And people are like, “We cannot keep doing this. This is very, very, very bad, so what are we gonna do?” 

[00:03:07] Aaron: Yeah. 

[00:03:08] Wil: So they founded the UN, right? That was the purpose of the United Nations.

[00:03:11] Wil: It was a forum. It was never meant to be perfect. It’s just like, “Let’s talk instead of shooting each other,” right? Mm. That’s, “We’ve gotta have- Oh, yeah … some forum here to make this work.” And about three years into it they said, “Okay, we have to have peace. That’s the whole purpose of this. In order to have peace, we have to have basic standards,” right?

[00:03:29] Wil: Mm-hmm. Like, what are we all going for? Yeah, what does peace mean? So we, so we need human rights. Yeah. Right? There, there’ve got, there’ve gotta be sort of core fundamental rights that everybody has. So Eleanor Roosevelt- And, and, and 

[00:03:37] Brad: agreement on those- Exactly. Yeah … on those rights as 

[00:03:39] Wil: well. So- 

[00:03:39] Brad: Otherwise, it’s opinion.

[00:03:41] Wil: Exactly. Yeah. So Eleanor Roosevelt, uh, headed up the committee, and they came up with 30 basic human rights. And if you read them, uh, the document itself, uh, not a fun read. Yeah. It’s legalese. It’s very dry. You know, it, as you can imagine. Mm-hmm. Like, the nations of the world- The UN document, yeah, yeah … coming together.

[00:03:58] Wil: My favorite. Yeah, like, like [00:04:00] lawyers upon lawyers, and eight, 800 languages. It was a thing. So, but- It was 

[00:04:04] Aaron: written in multiple languages? 

[00:04:05] Wil: Yeah, yeah. I mean, no, no, I’m sure the original- Oh, okay … draft was- Okay, yeah … was in English. But you’ve got, you know, different languages and cultures and people coming together.

[00:04:11] Wil: Yeah, yeah. Everybody wants to, has a say. Like, the driest document ever, right? But fundamentally covering things. There’s not a single thing mentioned in there where you’re like, “Well, I don’t know about that.” These are core, basic, fundamental things, right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And so that was about three years. That was 1948 when they ratified that.

[00:04:28] Wil: Yeah. But it didn’t have the force of law really, right? Mm-hmm. You’ve got the International Criminal Courts and things like that, and, uh, and all these gener- you know, decades later, politics inevitably comes in and plays and, and, and things like that. But- My opinion, I’m not here to bang the drum for the UN.

[00:04:44] Wil: That’s not my personal view of it. Mm-hmm. I’m a huge believer in people- Yeah … and in educating people. And if you educate people, if you give them helpful, correct information, most people will do great things with it, and that’s what I’m here for. So the way that I found out about this was [00:05:00] a friend of mine was creating music for these beautiful public service announcements.

[00:05:05] Wil: If you go to humanrights.com, you can see them. And they basically were trying to figure- Is that Taryn? Uh, that’s right. Yeah. Okay. Yep. And they were doing the music for… Have you interviewed him or no? No. Okay. No, we’d 

[00:05:15] Aaron: love to. I mean, we- 

[00:05:16] Wil: Yeah … would love to. He’s, he’s a good dude. Yeah. Very talented. Uh, and so they were putting together, uh, these just gorgeous public service announcements, and I, again, I’d never heard of the Universal Declaration and knew nothing about this, but I sang for one of them.

[00:05:28] Wil: And then I saw- Which one did you sing for? It’s, it was this The Right to Play. 

[00:05:32] Aaron: Oh, I love 

[00:05:33] Wil: that one. Oh, 

[00:05:33] Aaron: yeah. 

[00:05:33] Wil: Yeah, yeah. I did it at my home studio, and they- Okay … took it, and it was great ’cause I was, I think I was here at the time. I don’t remember. I’ll 

[00:05:39] Aaron: put a link to that below, 

[00:05:40] Wil: by the way. 

[00:05:40] Aaron: Yeah. That’ll 

[00:05:41] Brad: be there.

[00:05:41] Brad: Okay. Also, I’m just, uh, we didn’t talk about this, Will, but I’m b- I’m the, uh, the universal dumb guy in the studio. So can we go through the- 

[00:05:49] Wil: I’m that guy in every situation. 

[00:05:52] Brad: You’re not today. I 

[00:05:52] Wil: appreciate you. 

[00:05:53] Brad: So in terms of the Univer- the Declar- the Universal Declaration of Human Rights- Yeah … is what it’s called, right?

[00:05:57] Brad: Yeah. The document. 

[00:05:58] Wil: That’s exactly 

[00:05:58] Brad: right. So the right to [00:06:00] play? was in that document? Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:02] Wil: Yes. If you read the language in there again, it’s much more dry- Okay … than that, but the concept being- 

[00:06:07] Brad: The right to engage in a sport of your own 

[00:06:09] choosing. 

[00:06:09] Wil: Exactly. Or, you 

[00:06:10] Brad: know. 

[00:06:10] Wil: Or, or, or as a for instance, you can imagine the right to be an eight-year-old and not have to go work in a factory- 

[00:06:17] Brad: Yeah

[00:06:18] Wil: for 14 hours a day. 

[00:06:19] Brad: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:06:19] Wil: Right? Like, the, the concept that you have. A lot of them are, are, are so… But, but it’s really lovely because people really did think. It’s like, what does it mean to be a human being? Like, what do we value? What do we care about? What’s important to us? Mm-hmm. And- 

[00:06:31] Brad: I think no matter how dryly you wrote that, you would be…

[00:06:33] Brad: I need to go and read this thing now at this point. Yeah. ‘Cause I feel like no matter how dryly you write- Yeah … the truth, the truth’s still like, 

[00:06:39] Wil: boom. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the beauty of these materials, if you go to humanrights.com, and it’s, it’s printed materials, it’s in video form, they really do bring every single one of them to life.

[00:06:48] Wil: Mm-hmm. And so especially the videos. I’m a video guy, obviously, anyway, right? So I was a little biased. So I helped with the music, and these things came out, and I said, “Oh man, I wanna do something with this.” And I was already making music. I [00:07:00] already had a career. And so I started my own nonprofit. It was called Rock for Human Rights, and we would go into schools, essentially, and play shows for kids and talk about human rights.

[00:07:10] Wil: And, you know, how do you explain human rights to a fifth grader? You talk about bullying. Mm-hmm. You talk about respect in the environment. And the thing is, when you talk to kids about, and you, you really acknowledge them as people- Mm. 

[00:07:24] Brad: Mm-hmm … ‘

[00:07:24] Wil: cause so much of kids, I don’t know what it’s like for you, but, like for me, going to public school as a kid, most of it’s crowd control.

[00:07:30] Brad: Yeah. “

[00:07:30] Wil: Stand over here, do this.” And just the whole time, like half my time in school, I’m just like, “Are we still talking about this thing?” Yeah. I’m so bored, you know? Mm-hmm. I’m like, “What are we not getting? Can we move on?” And- 

[00:07:41] Brad: That’s such a good way to put it. It literally is crowd control. 

[00:07:43] Wil: It is. Yeah. And it, and 

[00:07:44] Brad: it’s- That, that completely matches my experience in public school

[00:07:46] Wil: totally. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s a little exhausting, and you’re just getting bossed around within an inch of your life. Yeah. And if you go to a kid and say, “Your opinion matters. Your, your-” Mm … “viewpoint on things matters. You have so much more agency than you realize as a [00:08:00] person-” Wow … they freaking love it.

[00:08:02] Wil: And when I first started doing this, I was worried that there were gonna be kids who were just too cool for school and not into it. And everywhere I’ve gone, I’ve done this all over the US, in Europe, in, in, um, all over Asia Every, and I’ve done it from preschoolers up through med school students. 

[00:08:18] Aaron: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:19] Wil: Everybody loves it. 

[00:08:20] Aaron: Wow. 

[00:08:21] Wil: And when I played full music shows, like with a band, I would bring, you know, bring the whole band along, and we’d say, and we’d have these beautiful booklets that simply and beautifully illustrate each of these precepts. And I’d say, “Okay, we’re gonna sign these, you know, with Sharpies after the show if you wanna come say hi.

[00:08:35] Wil: We’d love to meet you.” They treat us like the Beatles. Wow. Everywhere we go, every age, doesn’t matter, rich kids, poor kids, just different, uh, races, e- everything, people just eat it up everywhere we go. 

[00:08:47] Aaron: Wow. 

[00:08:48] Wil: And then- 

[00:08:48] Aaron: So can you give an example of, like, what occurred at a school? Or, like, an experience of one-on-one with a child or anyone who gave you, like, feedback afterwards, like- 

[00:08:56] Wil: Yeah.

[00:08:57] Wil: W- 

[00:08:57] Aaron: Just a little microcosm of what occurred. 

[00:08:59] Wil: So [00:09:00] I’m a big baby, like I’m always crying at sad- sad movies and stuff. Like, the, just know that ahead of time, so I’ll try to keep it together ’cause I’ve been telling this story for years, and every time it still makes me emotional. But there was a young girl in, in a particular school that we went to, and she basically gave feedback.

[00:09:15] Wil: We, we would ask for written feedback- Mm-hmm … ’cause we want it to be a good experience for them, right? Mm-hmm. And people, if you ask somebody, “Hey, how’d I do? Was it good? Did you enjoy it? Did you have a good time?” They’d be like- Oh, 

[00:09:24] Brad: yeah, yeah … “

[00:09:24] Wil: Yeah, you were great. Sorry.” They don’t wanna make you feel bad, right?

[00:09:27] Wil: Yeah. But if you ask for it in writing and they don’t have to sign their name, like you coulda done that better, let’s be honest. Yeah, yeah. Right? Don’t you agree? So we get great, helpful feedback, and then we’d improve it over time. And she basically said her mom had died, like, a year before, and she was just sad.

[00:09:42] Wil: Of course she was. And she basically said, “My mom told me not to be sad, and this made me just decide that she’s right.” 

[00:09:51] Aaron: Hmm. Wow. “

[00:09:52] Wil: And I’m gonna be, I’m just gonna embrace life. There’s a lot to live for,” basically. And this is like- 

[00:09:57] Aaron: Wow … 

[00:09:58] Wil: this girl’s like, I don’t know, maybe, uh, 12 or something. [00:10:00] Oh, wow. 

[00:10:00] Aaron: Bro. 

[00:10:01] Wil: And it’s like, oh man.

[00:10:02] Wil: Like, if I just didn’t do anything else- Wow … like all the time and effort, money, everything I put into it, if I just, if that was all that ever happened, like good. Check please. We’re good. Yeah. We’re done. You know? 

[00:10:12] Brad: Wow. Man. Yeah. 

[00:10:14] Wil: And, and there were just so many things like that. Like you, you could, you could just see it in kids’ eyes, right?

[00:10:19] Wil: Like, because also we were mostly, for a lot of these, especially the younger kids, we were like the first live rock concert type thing they’d ever seen in their lives. Oh, wow. Oh. Like, “This is a very loud, awesome noise.” “I like this.” And it was like, “Look, I sh- I can either go to math class or I can go do this thing.

[00:10:33] Wil: Which do I wanna be doing?” You know what I mean? 

[00:10:35] Brad: Easy choice. 

[00:10:35] Wil: Yeah. And so they were… But interestingly- Again, at humanrights.com there’s this beautiful animated short film. It’s about 10 minutes long. It’s called The Story of Human Rights. Mm-hmm. It explains the, the history. Obviously it leaves some things out.

[00:10:48] Wil: You can’t give the entire human history of human rights- Mm-hmm … in 10 minutes, right, and not leave a few things out. But it, it’s a great high-level overview. And these kids would come in, like, to a gym or some common area, ’cause it, it had to be the whole [00:11:00] school. Mm-hmm. You’re not gonna have somebody else’s math class that’s like, “What is that noise?”

[00:11:03] Wil: You know? 

[00:11:03] Aaron: Yeah. “

[00:11:04] Wil: What is going on in there?” So it was cool. It was like usually it was like 500 to 1,000 kids for most of these shows. 

[00:11:09] Aaron: Yeah. 

[00:11:09] Wil: And so they’d come in and they’re just thrilled ’cause it’s afternoon typically. 

[00:11:13] Aaron: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:13] Wil: They’re not going to math class or whatever they were gonna be doing instead, so they’re hyper through the roof, right?

[00:11:19] Wil: We would dim the lights as much as we could. We’d have a big screen, and we’d play this short film, and by the end of it they had arrived. Like, you could hear- Wow … a pin drop- Wow … and they’d just be like, “What is this?” And again, that to me is the power of art And aesthetics when you, and truth. Yeah. When you combine those two things, when, when you’re saying something that’s true, it resonates and people respond to it.

[00:11:42] Wil: If you say something artfully with music, with video, in film, whatever, people respond to that on an emotional, visceral level. When you combine the two things, it’s just unstoppable. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that’s everything that I do, even corporate work. Any- anything that I try to communicate out in the world that tries to combine those two things to the [00:12:00] best of my ability.

[00:12:01] Wil: To, to raise truth to an art form in a way that people will respond to. 

[00:12:05] Brad: Oh, I love that. 

[00:12:06] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:12:07] Brad: And it- it’s so, uh… It’s al- it’s almost like, um, what’s the word? Like contrarian. ‘Cause you see w- uh, I’ll tell my viewpoint on, like, most Hollywood people or artists or whatever is they’re trying to do the aesthetics.

[00:12:21] Wil: Mm. 

[00:12:21] Brad: But the truth is like, eh. True or not. 

[00:12:24] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:12:25] Brad: Why, does it really matter if it’s aesthetic? 

[00:12:27] Wil: Right. 

[00:12:27] Brad: But that, that does degrade the work. 

[00:12:30] Wil: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:12:30] Brad: You know? 

[00:12:31] Wil: I think that, I think there’s an incredible amount of pressure… So my wife is an award-winning filmmaker. 

[00:12:37] Brad: Mm. 

[00:12:37] Wil: And I’ve seen the process that she goes through.

[00:12:39] Wil: Every, every cliche you can possibly imagine behind the scenes. And I, and I don’t, I don’t wanna speak for her and I don’t wanna talk out of school on that. D- those are private conversations she has. But just everything you could imagine happening, every sort of caricature of Hollywood you’ve ever seen, I think of the Les Grossman character in Tropic Thunder.

[00:12:55] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:12:56] Wil: Yeah. There’s a reason that, that they put that in there, right? ‘Cause every [00:13:00] one of those a- I’m sure there was, like, therapy for every single one of those guys. Like, everybody’s dealt with Les. Like, everybody’s got their own Les in the entertainment business, right? Yeah. Or 10 of them, right? Yeah. I had a guy, this is a total random side note.

[00:13:11] Wil: I had a guy threaten to have me killed who could have done it- Wow … because I did, I said something he didn’t like. Wow. Just a little side note about the entertainment business. On film or just like 

[00:13:20] Aaron: backstage 

[00:13:20] Wil: or…? No, no, this was on a nice phone call I had with him- Okay … afterward. Because I wouldn’t give up the rights to a song that I’d written, basically.

[00:13:26] Wil: Huh. He just wanted them. I was like, “No, man.” I had already donated the song itself. It was for, and it was for a, for a, a foundation. It was a nonprofit thing. Yeah. I donated ’cause I like to help people. 

[00:13:37] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:13:38] Wil: And then he wanted me to donate the rights to the song, which didn’t even really matter at the ti- Like, it wasn’t the, it wasn’t gonna turn into anything.

[00:13:45] Wil: He just wanted to own it. He wanted to own me, he wanted to own- he wanted to take credit for the whole thing. Yeah. I was like, “I’m not doing that, dude. That’s a, there’s no way, there’s not even a point to that.” And he’s like… And then basically, ’cause he, he, he made all his money in New York construction- Yeah

[00:13:57] Wil: like in Manhattan construction. Yeah, yeah. I was like, “He could [00:14:00] probably, uh, cover me up in concrete if he wanted to.” 

[00:14:02] Brad: So 

[00:14:03] Wil: anyway, that’s the music business. Very, very exciting. But the other thing for me in terms of human rights was I grew up in West Germany as a kid. Yeah. So I moved there in the ’80s. My parents were teachers for military dependents.

[00:14:15] Wil: And everybody knew, everybody in the world, quote, “knew” that in West Germany you had freedom and democracy and human rights and the rule of law, and in East Germany at the time, it’s two different countries- 

[00:14:27] Brad: Mm … 

[00:14:27] Wil: none of those things existed. Mm. They, they were literally being held behind barbed wire and fences and landmines and guards in towers, right?

[00:14:34] Wil: Mm-hmm. And that’s just how it was. That’s just life. It is what it is, right? And as a kid, I didn’t understand the history of World War II and the, the Soviet Union and the separation. I didn’t, I didn’t know any of that. I just walked into this situation, and we live in this part, this country and the country next door.

[00:14:49] Wil: It used to be one country, I guess, and those people don’t have any rights at all. They’re basically in prison, and we have all the freedom, and, eh, it sucks for them. 

[00:14:56] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:14:56] Wil: What are you gonna do? That’s just the way the world is. And then I watched over the course [00:15:00] of just a few years- Mm … not a shot was fired, the UN didn’t intervene, the US military didn’t intervene, nobody got bombed.

[00:15:06] Wil: There was no attack. People just shoulder to shoulder, every average everyday people, construction workers and teachers and bakers and, and pharmacists started protesting more and more and more and more. Yeah. And it finally got to the point where there, it was this, this surge of humanity that could not be ignored.

[00:15:25] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:15:25] Wil: And people finally realized there’s, there’s millions of us and very, very few of them. Mm. And it just wasn’t sustainable. It wasn’t a sustainable way of life. 

[00:15:33] Brad: When you say them, the people who are keeping the, the wall up between East and West Germany. The people in charge. 

[00:15:38] Wil: So yeah, so the, it was basically the Soviet bloc.

[00:15:40] Wil: It was also, uh, I could get, I could get into a whole wonky history lesson which nobody cares about, but the, it was, it was excellent timing. Basically, the Soviet Union had cannibalized every resource. It was, it was not a sustainable system of government- 

[00:15:55] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:15:55] Wil: because everything broke. Because when you take, when you, when you socialize [00:16:00] every single thing- Yeah

[00:16:01] Wil: and there is no p- there is no free market at all No one takes responsibility for anything- 

[00:16:07] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:16:07] Wil: and so it all breaks. And so eventually you just keep using other people’s money, other people’s resources, and it got to the point where it was unsustainable. The people in charge at the time understood that.

[00:16:18] Wil: There’s like, “There’s nothing we can do.” We’re like, “We’re at the end of the road with this.” Yeah. “It didn’t work.” So it was good timing. But it would not have happened if brave people… Can you imagine being the first people who stood up? Like, because- Yeah … the people before them had gotten shot. 

[00:16:29] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:16:30] Wil: Right?

[00:16:30] Wil: And you can see on- Are we 

[00:16:31] Brad: talking about West Germans or East Germans at this point? East Germans. 

[00:16:34] Wil: Very much East Germans. 

[00:16:35] Brad: Oh, so the protesting was going on inside East Germany? 

[00:16:37] Wil: The protests had always gone on in the West, of course. I’m talking about the East 

[00:16:42] Brad: Germans. Oh, but they, but they didn’t care. They just ignored you.

[00:16:43] Brad: And, and- Like, “Oh, you’re over there on the other side of the wall. Whatever. 

[00:16:46] Wil: Do whatever you want.” And people in Poland where I’ve done human rights concerts as well. Just, just all of these things were happening, kind of these cascading dominoes at the time. Yeah. But it was absolutely… It’s, you know, it’s all well and good for me to sit here and talk about human rights sitting in this comfortable studio in Florida.

[00:16:59] Wil: Yeah. Which is, [00:17:00] which is very much in favor of such things, the, especially these days, right? Yeah. But to do it in an environment where you can be disappeared- Yeah … where your family could be punished, where you, where your, your opportunities in life can be severely limited, that’s a completely different reality.

[00:17:15] Wil: Wow. Like I think about the protesters in Iran, right? Like 30, 40,000 people that they murdered- 

[00:17:21] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:17:21] Wil: just for speaking up, right? 

[00:17:23] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:17:23] Wil: It’s insane. Yeah. It’s insane. And I just decided at some point, I don’t wanna live on a planet like that. It doesn’t make any sense to me in the world that you can get on a plane in one place, and you have a certain amount of rights and freedoms, and then you fly a few hours, eight, 10 hours, and you get off, and you don’t.

[00:17:40] Aaron: Right. 

[00:17:40] Wil: Just because of where you are. That’s weird. 

[00:17:43] Aaron: Mm. 

[00:17:43] Wil: Isn’t that weird? 

[00:17:44] Aaron: It is 

[00:17:44] Wil: weird. Doesn’t make any sense. And I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it first on a front row seat. Enough people stood up and said, “This is not okay,” and then it changed. Mm-hmm. So that, that helped me understand that if you educate people young enough on a broad enough scale that human rights are [00:18:00] real, that they matter, and by the way, here’s what they are- 

[00:18:02] Brad: Mm-hmm

[00:18:02] Wil: let’s stand up for these. Let’s all agree that this is important. You would change the world. 

[00:18:08] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:18:08] Wil: That’s the idea. Yeah. 

[00:18:08] Brad: Yeah. So from what you saw actually being there in West Germany, like I, I feel like the historic narrative is that Ronald Reagan did it. which I’m sure he had an impact- 

[00:18:20] Wil: Totally … of course.

[00:18:21] Wil: Totally. O- of course, there, there’s so many different elements that go into this. I’m massively oversimplifying it. 

[00:18:26] Brad: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:18:27] Wil: Fundamentally- 

[00:18:28] Brad: Mm-hmm … 

[00:18:29] Wil: the, it was the everyday people actually having the courage- Mm-hmm … to stand up. Because it wasn’t a militant overthrow. 

[00:18:37] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:37] Wil: It wasn’t us arming the rebels- Yep

[00:18:39] Wil: ’cause that goes so well every time- … we do it. Yeah. Yeah. Over and over again. Well, I don’t 

[00:18:44] Brad: think, I don’t think we had tried it at that point yet. 

[00:18:46] Wil: Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and i- so we had done everything we possibly could to destabilize the Soviet Union, et cetera, of course. Mm-hmm. Like, there’s all these geopolitics happening, but the reason it happened the way that it did, at the timetable that it did, and as quickly as it did- Mm-hmm

[00:18:59] Wil: is [00:19:00] because normal, average, everyday people stood up for their human rights, end shoulder to shoulder- 

[00:19:04] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:19:04] Wil: and said, “We are powerful, and we will not be denied it.” 

[00:19:07] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:19:07] Wil: You know? And I just love that. 

[00:19:08] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:19:09] Wil: It’s like my favorite story of the modern era. 

[00:19:11] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:19:12] Wil: Right? ‘Cause again, not a shot was fired, not a, not a punch was thrown.

[00:19:15] Wil: And you can see it on their faces if you look at the video of people the moment they first come through, they started tearing down the wall, and they literally step over. And they’re just like, “Am I gonna get shot?” Like, the, the- Oh, they’re like expecting, they’re just like- The, the, well, the, just the look-

[00:19:31] Wil: “I’m done. Oh” … of shock on people’s faces, like they can’t believe it. You can tell they can’t believe it’s happening. Like, it’s like an out-of-body experience for them. It’s really neat to see 

[00:19:40] Brad: it. I- is, is, have you, have you been back to Germany and, and traversed… That’s kind of a weird question, but have you like traversed where the physical actual barrier used to be?

[00:19:50] Wil: 100%. And you, and you can see it. So when I first- 

[00:19:52] Brad: I was just gonna ask, is there like any ti- do you like feel anything? Like when you, like- 

[00:19:57] Wil: Well, there, there’s, there are memorials certainly in Berlin. Mm. So [00:20:00] the, the Berlin Wall is what I’m really describing, right? 

[00:20:02] Brad: Right, right, 

[00:20:02] Wil: right, yeah. And the wall was around- ‘

[00:20:03] Brad: Cause it was Germany- 

[00:20:05] Wil: Yeah

[00:20:05] Brad: but then it also split the city of Berlin- 

[00:20:07] Wil: Yes … 

[00:20:07] Brad: was the d- yeah. 

[00:20:08] Wil: And so basically there was a wall around- 

[00:20:10] Brad: I paid attention in history class- Yeah, 

[00:20:11] Wil: well done … 

[00:20:12] Brad: to this 

[00:20:12] Wil: part. There was a wall around West Berlin, which is weird. It was basically this island of freedom- Mm … and democracy in the middle of the Soviet bloc basically.

[00:20:20] Wil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s just so weird how things evolve, right? Yeah. And so, uh, when I first started going there, this is in the late ’80s, early ’90s, there were still bombed out buildings from World War II. Again, that’s how much that system did not work, right? Yeah, 

[00:20:34] Brad: yeah. 

[00:20:34] Wil: And now East Berlin, because th- this unbelievable infusion of investment came in, right?

[00:20:41] Wil: Mm. It’s like, it’s like green fields all day long. Uh, it came in, and so now the eastern areas of the city are more modern. Like the architecture’s- Oh, wow … more modern. There’s more going on there. And West Berlin’s a little bit more quaint. Again, oversimplifying, but it’s a little- Yeah … a little bit quaint or older by comparison, right?

[00:20:57] Wil: Wow. Which is so funny to think about, right? 

[00:20:58] Aaron: Yeah. 

[00:20:59] Wil: Yeah. [00:21:00] It’s wild. 

[00:21:00] Aaron: That’s wild 

[00:21:00] Brad: how that reversed. 

[00:21:01] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:21:02] Aaron: How did you first get into music? 

[00:21:06] Wil: So when I was, when I was really young, I sa- I sang at church. Like, that was the very first thing I remember. And I just kind of always thought everybody could sing, like really, like a lot.

[00:21:18] Wil: I grew up in church, but everybody sang at church. You know, not everyone was, like, amazing. I remember hearing, like… What’s that noise? Whatever. But it was like, but- But, 

[00:21:25] Aaron: but which church was this in, where? 

[00:21:27] Wil: Uh, this was the U- the First United Methodist Church- Okay … of Mocksville, North Carolina. 

[00:21:31] Aaron: Okay. Okay. 

[00:21:32] Wil: Um, and then I- Good old Mocksville.

[00:21:33] Wil: Good old Mocksville. It, which has grown amazing. It’s actually gorgeous. They’re not… There, it’s in the foothills of the mountains there- Okay. Mm … in North Carolina. It really is beautiful. It is. I took it for granted as a kid. And I went back there as an adult, and I hadn’t been back there for… I was like, “This is beautiful here.”

[00:21:46] Wil: Yeah. Like, how did I not notice this? Um, but I remember just being terrified and thinking I did a bad job. And of course- Singing? Yeah. Oh. And of course everyone… I was like six or something. They’re like, “You’re amazing.” I was like, “I don’t know, man.” ‘Cause I had this… [00:22:00] I’ve always had this standard in my head, like I needed to be a pro.

[00:22:02] Wil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or I just wasn’t gonna do it- Uh-huh … if I didn’t do it at pro level. And it really was in high school. I went to boarding school. Again, I fell into that experience. I’d never thought about that. And then my dad, who was a teacher, did this continuing education program, and his roommate at this summer program was an admissions officer for this very tony boarding school in New England, and I got a scholarship- Wait, very what 

[00:22:25] Brad: boarding 

[00:22:25] Wil: school?

[00:22:26] Wil: Like, very wealthy. It’s like the number one school in- You said tony? Tony? Yeah, like, like expensive, like, uh- Well, why is it? ‘

[00:22:32] Aaron: Cause Tony’s a person who’s rich? 

[00:22:33] Wil: No, I just… Yeah, the, yeah, that’s, that’s just- Is that the idea? That’s just a word- Tony. Okay. Yeah. The, the, I don’t actually know where the, the etymology of that word comes from.

[00:22:39] Wil: Yeah. But it’s like, like upscale- We’ll look it up after the episode … rich upscale- Okay … whatever. Like, very wealthy kids. Like Mark Zuckerberg went there. Oh, wow. Mm. Like, the Facebook was a spiral-bound notebook that just showed the… It had a photo and name of all the staff and students, so you’d know who everybody was, right?

[00:22:55] Wil: And, and Harvard had one, too. So anyway, that’s- Yeah … that’s where he came up with the idea. Um, [00:23:00] so anyway, I went there, um, as a kid. And, uh, where was I going with that story of what- Is 

[00:23:04] Brad: that book at that school now called the original Facebook? Nothing 

[00:23:07] Aaron: like that. 

[00:23:07] Wil: You, when you- Yeah, right. Exactly. I don’t even know if they call it that anymore.

[00:23:09] Wil: I’m sure they do probably. Yeah. I, I would imagine they’ve hit him up for a donation or two. Yeah. You know what I mean? 

[00:23:14] Aaron: Um, so you were at the school. You were singing at church. You- 

[00:23:17] Wil: Oh, yeah, yeah. So, yes. So it, it was going to boarding school, and I was, and I was singing in the locker room, like, to myself. And one of the guy- one of the older guys there was like, “You, you’re a good singer.

[00:23:26] Wil: We have this a cappella group,” which sounds- Oh … so nerdy now. But a guitar- No, dude, I love a cappella groups. Well, so it was- What do you mean? It was all, it was all guys. Yeah. There, there were different a cappella groups. It is, it 

[00:23:35] Brad: is, it is nerdy. 

[00:23:36] Wil: It’s super nerdy. It’s nerdy. But, but- I also like 

[00:23:38] Brad: it though. It is 

[00:23:39] Aaron: also nerdy.

[00:23:39] Aaron: I think it’s 

[00:23:39] Wil: cool. I think it’s cool. I think it’s cool nerdy. Totally. Yeah. Well, and also a cappella groups now do, like, the most incredible things- Yep … that they did not do- Yeah, they’re sick at it … in, in the ’90s. 

[00:23:45] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:23:45] Wil: Um, but anyway, it was the all, all guys singing group. Like, you get to serenade pretty girls basically.

[00:23:50] Wil: I was like, “Yes, please.” And so- Oh, that’s not nerdy at all … and so, and so… No, that part was fantastic. That sounds amazing. 

[00:23:54] Brad: Wow. 

[00:23:54] Wil: And so I tried, uh, I tried out and got in. And then, uh, and [00:24:00] then I did a solo. For like at the fall concert for parents, and people kinda went nuts. And I was like, “

[00:24:06] Aaron: Okay, 

[00:24:07] Wil: look at that.” So I started singing more and more, and then I had a band in high school, and we recorded a CD, which like is a project.

[00:24:15] Wil: This was the kinda school. Like I just made stuff up. They were like, “Can I just, can I do this as a class?” They’re like, “Yeah, okay.” And so, and so I got to do that, which was really cool. And then a producer in LA got ahold of it and flew me out, did some demos. One thing led to another in the career. And he was the first person in the music business who said, “You know, you could do this for a living if you wanted.”

[00:24:34] Wil: And I’d never heard… It didn’t, hadn’t, hadn’t even occurred to me. Even though the guy was flying me out there- 

[00:24:38] Aaron: Mm … 

[00:24:38] Wil: I still didn’t have that sense of myself- Mm … like I could do this. Like if you look at photos of me in high school, uh, yeah, nerdy. Super, like next level nerdy. So I was just like, “I’m not cool enough to do this,” or I can’t be my heroes, right?

[00:24:52] Wil: And then he was like, “You could do this for a living.” It’s so funny ‘

[00:24:54] Aaron: cause you, you look, for me, you look like the opposite of that. 

[00:24:57] Wil: Oh. 

[00:24:57] Aaron: Like, no, I mean, you got the tattoos, you got like the- Well, [00:25:00] I’ve grown- … the blonde thing- But you’re not having it seen. I’ve got the s- … and the blue eyes. You like- I’ve 

[00:25:02] Wil: grown into it.

[00:25:03] Wil: I’ll 

[00:25:03] Aaron: send you- You haven’t even seen him 

[00:25:04] Brad: on his motorcycle … 

[00:25:05] Wil: I’ll send you- He’s got 

[00:25:05] Aaron: a motorcycle too … I’ll send 

[00:25:06] Wil: you blackmail photos. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. 

[00:25:11] Aaron: Which 

[00:25:11] Brad: we will gratefully accept. 

[00:25:12] Wil: Absolutely. Yeah. So I, so I just fell into it, and one thing led to another, and, and I’ve always been a hard worker, and that’s needed.

[00:25:19] Wil: Like any entrepre- any entrepreneurial thing. It’s so funny. It’s, it’s owning a small business. You just don’t know that. Nobody tells you that. Right. Yeah, 

[00:25:25] Brad: yeah. 

[00:25:25] Wil: And you don’t know any of that. I didn’t know anything about anything, right? Like I just didn’t know anything about life or people or how anything worked.

[00:25:32] Wil: No concept of business. My parents are both teachers. They’re lovely people, but like I don’t understand finance or how to balance a checkbook or nothing. Yeah. And I just went out there and just, again, Forrest Gumped my way through it. That’s like- Yeah … my, my life MO. 

[00:25:47] Brad: Be- because it’s so long ago, can you tell us how much you made off your first record deal?

[00:25:51] Brad: Do you remember? 

[00:25:52] Wil: So the independent deal, I think I got like an advance of like 20 or 25 grand or something. And then- How old 

[00:25:59] Brad: were [00:26:00] you 

[00:26:00] Wil: when you got that? Uh, I was like 21 maybe? That’s 

[00:26:05] Aaron: pretty 

[00:26:05] Brad: good. That’s pretty good, 

[00:26:06] Wil: bro. Well, and then, then I had a deal with Warner Brothers, and I had a publishing deal- Yeah, that’s 

[00:26:09] Brad: pretty not good, 

[00:26:10] Wil: I would imagine

[00:26:11] Wil: a songwriting deal. No, no, it was actually pretty, pretty tasty. 

[00:26:13] Brad: Um- Oh, I’m sorry. You said you had a de- I thought you said, “I had to deal with.” 

[00:26:16] Wil: Oh, no, no, no. Yes. Got it. Well, yeah. No, no. Honestly- 

[00:26:19] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:26:19] Wil: nothing but good things to say about- Wow … the entire machine, especially as an adult and a business owner and an entrepreneur myself.

[00:26:26] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Wil: I screwed up. Like, I just was not ready for the opportunity. Yeah. If I had it to do all over again, I would’ve done it very differently. Hmm. They were incredibly generous with me, gave me a lot of money, tour support. I opened for huge bands. I was on the radio, and I just… I made a career out of making pretty good music.

[00:26:43] Brad: Hmm. 

[00:26:43] Wil: And what I wish so this is my favorite music business story, is that I had worked for years. I toured… Like, I worked really hard. Mm-hmm. For several years, we were touring nonstop, like just driving like 12,000 miles a month in our van. Whoa. Literally, literally until [00:27:00] the wheels fell off. Wow. The wheels fell off once-

[00:27:01] Wil: on one of the vans, like just into the ground, working my butt off. I get this deal. I’ve got like 50 songs in the can that we’ve written and demoed, and the label comes to me and says, “Look, we wanna put you with a hit songwriter, um, just to see what happens.” And I was like, “No, no.” I’ve got it. 

[00:27:19] Aaron: Oh. 

[00:27:20] Wil: I’m good.

[00:27:21] Wil: Because I had- ‘Cause you were writing your songs … because we, I, we already had, like, 50 songs that I believed in. Mm. And I’m like, “Look, I’m already not gonna release three-quarters of these- Wow … or more,” right? So, like, I know I wanna fight for my songs that… And, and what I came up with, if you listen to that album, is there’s, like, 12 songs.

[00:27:38] Wil: Three or four of them are really pretty darn good, and the rest are m- okay. 

[00:27:43] Aaron: Yeah. 

[00:27:44] Wil: And not a single one of them is a smash, melt-your-face generational hit. 

[00:27:49] Aaron: Mm. 

[00:27:50] Wil: And that’s what you have to have- Yeah … in the music business. And if you do that one time, you can build an entire career. I have friends that I was touring with at the time- Mm-hmm

[00:27:58] Wil: who did that. They had [00:28:00] one radio hit. To this day, they’re still touring, and they’ll, they’ll play to 500 or 1,000 people in a club. 

[00:28:06] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:06] Wil: And they make a living, and they love it. 

[00:28:08] Brad: Dude, look at Mark Wahlberg. 

[00:28:09] Wil: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And look what he parlayed that all into, right? Yeah. And I’m not even talking necessarily, like, a top 10.

[00:28:16] Wil: I’m talking top 40 hit. 

[00:28:17] Aaron: Wow. 

[00:28:18] Wil: You can make a career. 

[00:28:18] Aaron: And, and your friends that did this, how many of them do you… Did you count, like, how many of them had it with some other writer that wrote for them? 

[00:28:25] Wil: Well, the funny thing is I’ve since– I should have been working in Nashville the whole time. I just didn’t know it.

[00:28:31] Brad: Mm. 

[00:28:32] Wil: And the last recordings I did were in 2019. Like, the last EP I actually went into a studio and recorded was in 2019, and I did it all in Nashville, and I just love that place. 

[00:28:41] Brad: Oh, wow. 

[00:28:42] Wil: And you walk around that town and s- and, and if you’re with people in the business, they’ll be like, “That, that’s the best mandolin player in the country,” and he looks like he works at Kinko’s.

[00:28:50] Brad: Wow. 

[00:28:50] Wil: Like, or, or just older guys who look like they just came in from the farm, which they probably did. Mm-hmm. And they’re just, like, face-meltingly amazing. Like, [00:29:00] just incredible virtuoso musicians. Wow. Like, the guy, the guy that produced my EP, he plays for the country artist Brantley Gilbert. Mm. He plays guitar for him.

[00:29:08] Wil: He’s from North Carolina, both, both of them are. And, um, and I, I got to go backstage and hang with the band at one of the shows that they played, and I’m, uh, just sitting on the tour bus talking to them. And I’m just asking, ’cause I’m, I like people and I’m curious, and I’m talking to the guys. And this guy has literally, like, a master’s in music.

[00:29:25] Wil: This other guy- Yeah … has his side gig where he plays, like, unbelievable, like, jazz. Th- this is– Those are their passion projects, and they’re up on stage, and they are playing whole notes Right? And so pro. They never miss a note. They look like they’re having the absolute time of their lives, even if they’ve got a migraine and they’re dehydrated or they got food poisoning or whatever.

[00:29:46] Wil: Mm-hmm. And that’s why they’re up there, and that’s why they’re on the biggest stages in the world, because they’re pros, right? Mm-hmm. And you learn a lot by being around people like that, right? Yeah. And that’s what it takes. And I just… So I was like, “No, no, I’m [00:30:00] good. I’m fine.” And, uh, you know, my career, uh, was the result of that, right?

[00:30:05] Wil: Uh, it’s like I kind of took it as far as I possibly could. I got on the radio, but I wasn’t top 40. I didn’t have a huge hit. Opened for huge bands, but didn’t end up headlining big tours. And then life happened. You know, my son was born. I took some time off, whatever, whatever. You know, 

[00:30:18] Aaron: whatever. And so, and so, like, you said you had some friends that made it, right?

[00:30:22] Aaron: Do you know how many of them wrote their own songs versus someone wrote the songs for them? 

[00:30:25] Wil: Yeah, sorry. And then I never answered your question. Thank you for getting me back to the point. Yeah, sure. Which is Nashville is the kind of town where y- everybody writes together. And, and there are guys that- Oh

[00:30:35] Wil: I wrote with. There was one song on that EP, one of my favorites, that I wrote with, like, three other guys, and we went into a session. For all of them, it was, like, their third or fourth session that day. Wow. And they all know each other. Every single one of them was at least 10 years younger than I was, better looking, better voice, better guitar player, better, better singer, better songwriter.

[00:30:55] Wil: And I asked every single one of them, like, “What are you doing?” Like, “Why aren’t you out there?” Like, “You’re all [00:31:00] so ridiculously talented.” They’re like, “Dude, I got a wife and a kid and a mortgage, and I like my life. We’re good.” Because they’ll write 200 songs a year or 300 songs a year or 500 songs a year and one of them will make it onto a major country artist’s album.

[00:31:17] Wil: Wow. Yeah. And that pays all their bills. Wow. And keeps paying all their bills- 

[00:31:20] Brad: Wow. 

[00:31:21] Wil: Oh, wow … for years to come, right? Again, that’s an oversimplification. Yeah. But that’s the core industry. But that’s the scenario- Yeah, that’s awesome … that people are going for. Yeah, 

[00:31:28] Brad: that’s awesome. 

[00:31:28] Wil: So it really depends. LA’s not as much like that, um, but there, it’s definitely…

[00:31:34] Wil: In hindsight, I sure wish I had been open to that ’cause I could have learned so much and who knows what would’ve happened- Mm … as a byproduct of it. 

[00:31:41] Aaron: Right. 

[00:31:41] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:31:42] Brad: And how, how did the… Like now your, like your, your primary business is video production. How did that tr- did that transition come when you kinda like became family man Will?

[00:31:54] Wil: Yes. So I started doing some other things and very quickly realized that I didn’t know how to do anything. 

[00:31:59] Brad: [00:32:00] Mm. 

[00:32:00] Wil: I did not understand- … business or fundamental economics, uh, or, or how to make sure I spent less money than I made, for instance. Um, just really, like, just next level clueless. I’m, I’m one of those- Like personal life lesson or business lesson?

[00:32:11] Wil: Bo- both. Okay, yeah. Like, like re- like I’m one of those people- He was

[00:32:15] Aaron: being a musician. He’s trying to put on the musician game, man. That’s what musicians do … 

[00:32:18] Wil: I’m an artist- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and other people can handle all the hard math for me. Just so glib. Just so glib as a person. I’m a great example of someone who’s… I’ve always had a high IQ. I’m book smart, but just a moron in life.

[00:32:31] Wil: Right. Like, like really just not, just no f- I did not have the fundamental tools. Like how does life work? Why are people the way that they are? What is like the concept of exchange, right? Mm. Like you give me something, I give you something of equal or greater value. No clue how any of that worked. Uh, and just magically still, you know, I think because I was a very hard worker and because I’m a pretty smart guy, I figured enough stuff out to keep going.

[00:32:55] Wil: But I got into business. I was working for a property developer in [00:33:00] 2008. You may remember- … if you were in business at the time. LOL. It didn’t go great. Uh, it went very badly. And 

[00:33:06] Brad: so- I know several s- several, uh, jokes that begin with that. 

[00:33:09] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:33:09] Brad: 2008, I was working for a property developer. 

[00:33:10] Wil: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, my life was the butt of that joke.

[00:33:14] Wil: And so I, I’m sort of s- sitting around with my wife, who is furio- understandably, correctly furious with me. ‘Cause there had been a series of missteps, which she saw as big as a billboard. Like, “You sure you wanna do that?” I’m like, “Hold my beer, honey. I got this. Don’t worry about it.” “I’m, I’m the man of the house.

[00:33:33] Wil: Don’t you worry.” And she’s like, “Okay, sounds good.” And I’ve got a, and I’ve got a toddler like, “Feed me, Daddy, please.” And just as broke as a person could possibly be. 

[00:33:43] Brad: Oh, wow. 

[00:33:44] Wil: And I, and, uh, I had a business partner, and he had worked for this property developer as well, and he was more experienced in business.

[00:33:50] Wil: What, what was, what was 

[00:33:51] Brad: the business? 

[00:33:52] Wil: Um, the, so we started, this was our first agency that, that we started- Okay … a- as a byproduct of that. So, so out of the- Mm … ashes of this property [00:34:00] development situation, which did not end well, um, he said, “Hey, look, I need, I need help with this thing. You interested?” And I was like, “As, as, of all the better things I have to do right now, yes, I think I can make time for this.”

[00:34:12] Wil: And it was, like, at least six months of, like, 70, 80 hours a week for grocery money- 

[00:34:18] Brad: Yep … 

[00:34:18] Wil: for the first six months. Yep. And, and again, fell into- Dude … video production- That- … as a byproduct of that … 

[00:34:24] Brad: this, obviously this is not, like, an entrepreneurial, like, focused podcast necessarily. Yeah. But that, just to go on that for a second, that is, like, that period of time where you’re working your just tail off for li- you said it so great, grocery money.

[00:34:38] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:34:39] Brad: That’s the, I think actually, like, it’s like the first, like, wall of fire for entrepreneurs. 100%. Like, are you willing to go through that? Because if you’re not, like, that’s why so many people just bounce from my viewpoint from business to business to business is they’re just like- 

[00:34:51] Aaron: I, I, I didn’t do it that way.

[00:34:53] Brad: Yes, you did. 

[00:34:53] Aaron: No. 

[00:34:54] Brad: Yeah, you 

[00:34:54] Aaron: did. No, I worked my nine to five, and I do- Yeah … my, my business on the side. That’s the way I did it, ’cause- 

[00:34:59] Brad: Yeah, but bro, [00:35:00] how many hours a week- It’s easier that way … were you putting in on the business during that time? 

[00:35:04] Aaron: You know, at the beginning, 10, and then 20, and then maybe 30, and, like- I was-

[00:35:08] Aaron: but with- and the full-time job in the day, but I wasn’t… Like, my money, I was making on my nine to five. 

[00:35:14] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:35:14] Aaron: Like, some- like, in this case, you went all in with nothing, and the business had to pay you. 

[00:35:18] Wil: Yeah. Right? That sounds romantic. I was unemployable. 

[00:35:21] Aaron: You’re- 

[00:35:21] Wil: okay, okay. There you go. Yeah, the, so on paper, I wouldn’t have hired- So it’s I had no, I, I never- I didn’t do that.

[00:35:26] Wil: I didn’t do that … I never finished college- Yeah, yeah … ’cause I, ’cause I got my first record deal. Me neither. I didn’t start… I mean, yeah. Yeah. So, I, I just, I looked horrible on paper. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I just said I’d been making music. Like, “What are, what have you been doing the last several years?” “Playing music- On the road

[00:35:38] Wil: in bars, college parties. I’m gonna be great in a corporate environment, trust me.” Oh my. Yeah, it was just, just no one would hire me, right? Yeah. And I, and I didn’t want, like, an entry-level job. Yeah. I also knew. Like, and, and I was- Yeah … I was hungry for it. I had the fire in my belly. I’ve always been a kind of a fire-in-my-belly kind of guy, right?

[00:35:58] Wil: Yeah. Like, I kinda knew at that [00:36:00] point the music thing- Wait, wait. What does 

[00:36:00] Aaron: fire in the belly mean, dude? Um, 

[00:36:02] Wil: I’m- I 

[00:36:02] Aaron: think you’re, like, so American for me, dude. Yeah. Like, 

[00:36:04] Wil: some of 

[00:36:04] Aaron: these things, I’m like, “This is so American.” 

[00:36:06] Wil: All, all my, all my idioms. Like, what, 

[00:36:07] Aaron: fire in the belly? What, what is that? 

[00:36:08] Wil: Meaning, like, I have a burning desire from within to achieve.

[00:36:12] Aaron: Okay, okay. 

[00:36:13] Wil: Like, like whatever- Wow, that’s a great 

[00:36:14] Aaron: way to state 

[00:36:14] Wil: that … achievement 

[00:36:15] Aaron: comes from the belly. 

[00:36:16] Wil: Whatever the target is. Yeah. I, I 

[00:36:17] Aaron: can succeed. 

[00:36:17] Wil: Yeah, like from your core, right? Yeah. From, like, the inner fiber- Okay, okay … of your being. He’s a very American idiot. It’s like, I’m gonna go- Yeah … get this done.

[00:36:23] Wil: Fire in the 

[00:36:23] Brad: belly, 

[00:36:24] Aaron: like 

[00:36:24] Brad: you s- yeah. 

[00:36:24] Wil: I’m the kinda guy, I’m, I, I need a target. I’m like, “Where’s the top of the mountain?” Mm. Yep. Which mountain? Yep. You, you point it to me, I will drag my bleeding carcass over the finish line- Mm-hmm … to get there. Yep. You know? That’s sort of how I approach everything, for better or for worse.

[00:36:37] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:36:37] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:36:37] Brad: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That I, I can I understand. 

[00:36:40] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:36:40] Aaron: That’s great. Okay, so, so you ended up doing this business. You started doing, um, uh, video production. 

[00:36:45] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:36:45] Aaron: And what, what year is this? 

[00:36:46] Wil: This is, like, 2008. 

[00:36:48] Aaron: Okay, 

[00:36:48] Wil: so- And, like, end of 2008, beginning of 2009, and b- this is, like, so, I’m dating myself. Oh, 

[00:36:53] Brad: so this is basic pre-YouTube.

[00:36:55] Wil: So this is, MySpace is still the biggest social media site. Dude, with Tom. Whoa. [00:37:00] Twitter is a, a glink, a, a g- a glint in someone’s eye, right? And- 

[00:37:03] Brad: Dude, that had to’ve been the most wicked timing on Earth … 

[00:37:06] Wil: like, fish in a barrel. Yeah. Like, like we were- Yeah … and we were making videos using iMovie. Uh, there was no stock footage because there was no broadband internet.

[00:37:15] Wil: The 

[00:37:15] Brad: retainer will be $10,000. Yeah. What software will we be using? iMovie? 

[00:37:17] Wil: Yes. But we’re using it to a professional standard, don’t worry, which we were not. Oh, no. We were hiring young kids and throwing them in front of computers saying, “This is what it’s supposed to look like. If you can figure that out, that’d be great.”

[00:37:29] Wil: And we’d just use stock images, just the guy from, like, the business guy that you see on every website from, like, the early 2000s, like Like that guy, right? And then text on screen. But the scripts were great. The voiceovers were very personable. Mm. It’s what you hear in explainer videos now. 

[00:37:47] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:47] Wil: But that was not happening at the time.

[00:37:49] Brad: Oh, 

[00:37:49] Wil: wow. Like, I, I swear, because I’ve worked with, like, hundreds and hundreds of Fortune 500 companies. I don’t think it’s too self-aggrandizing to say we had [00:38:00] some level of influence. Mm. Because we were literally- Mm … probably one of 100 agencies in the country doing- Mm … this work at the time. 

[00:38:05] Brad: Explainer videos- And it’s-

[00:38:07] Brad: specifically was your, was your niche? 

[00:38:08] Wil: Exactly. Wow. And, and it’s like, it’s evolved so… It’s been such an exponential supernova- Yeah, now you can just do like a good type 

[00:38:13] Aaron: of sentence and you got it, 

[00:38:14] Wil: right? Totally, yeah. It’s done, so. And, and so now it’s just, it’s hard to think back to a time where, where… But it was the beginning.

[00:38:19] Wil: Mm-hmm. And I got to, I, I rode the wave of this industry from brand new- 

[00:38:24] Aaron: Mm-hmm … 

[00:38:24] Wil: to fully mature, which had its own bumps and bruises. Like, when it fully matured- Yeah … about two years ago- 

[00:38:30] Brad: Yeah … 

[00:38:30] Wil: it was bad. Yeah. ‘Cause it, it fully commoditized. It was just like, I’m gonna go get the cheapest gas. Wherever the cheapest gas station is, that’s Brule.

[00:38:38] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:38:38] Wil: And then you gotta reinvent again. You gotta turn it into something else, you know, which we’ve done- Yeah … now. 

[00:38:42] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:38:42] Wil: I survived. Good job. And now it’s, now it’s going well. 

[00:38:45] Brad: Good job. 

[00:38:46] Wil: Yeah. But it’s, it’s never a dull moment, as you know, as business owners, right? 

[00:38:49] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:38:50] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:38:50] Brad: Yeah. So the, kind of the, the, the theme of, like, human rights activity- Mm-hmm

[00:38:57] Brad: just kind of like to pull it back to that, ’cause it seems like it kind of, [00:39:00] like, came back in life later on. 

[00:39:02] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:39:02] Brad: Like, h- w- How did that, how did that transition go? Like, you were like, “Oh, I make videos. They… Like, it would be good to make videos for this.” Yeah. And you’re just like, “I wanna make vid-” Like, how did that occur?

[00:39:13] Wil: Well, it, it really came through the music because I’ve, I always- Mm … wanna save the world. Like, U2 was my favorite band growing up. They’re the reason I got into music, and the thing I loved about U2, they were a Christian band, but I didn’t literally even know that for years. Mm. 

[00:39:27] Aaron: I literally didn’t 

[00:39:27] Wil: know that until like- I was like, I w- I didn’t…

[00:39:28] Wil: I 

[00:39:28] Aaron: just found that right now … 

[00:39:29] Wil: I was a hard- I didn’t know. I was a hardcore- Yeah … fan for years before I understood that they were devout Christians. 

[00:39:37] Aaron: Mm. 

[00:39:37] Wil: Very, very sincere in their faith and I, and I feel like it was front and center to what they did and how they did it. But v- v- they just… It was the sound of hope for me- 

[00:39:48] Aaron: Yeah

[00:39:48] Wil: at the time, right? Wow. 100%. And, and innovational. So I mean, they were the biggest band in the world for years, um, for a reason. And so I just always wanted to save the world somehow. I love helping people. I’ve always been that way. [00:40:00] I like helping little old ladies cross the street. I will stop and give somebody directions if they look like they need it.

[00:40:04] Wil: I like holding doors for people. Like, I just love helping people. I think, I wish more people understood selfishly for their own selfish needs how good it feels to help another person. 

[00:40:16] Brad: Yeah. Oh, that 100%. Yeah. 

[00:40:17] Wil: Because it is, it is… There’s nothing that recharges your batteries in life like knowing you’ve been of genuine service to another person, even in just tiny little things.

[00:40:25] Wil: Yeah. Just making somebody’s day, making somebody smile, just doing a little polite favor for somebody when they don’t, especially when they don’t expect it, ’cause you don’t see that all day every day anymore, right? 

[00:40:35] Brad: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:40:35] Wil: So that was the, the fundamental motivation has always been there, and then when I stopped doing music full time, it’s like, well, well, if I’m gonna do music, if I’m gonna go to any trouble at all on this, I wanna make it mean something.

[00:40:47] Wil: Mm. And so when I found this project related to the human, the un- the Universal Declaration of Human Rights- Yeah … everything you can find at humanrights.com, I said, “I’m gonna use art and music to spread the [00:41:00] gospel of this message” was- Uh-huh … kinda the idea behind it. And so one thing just kinda led to another.

[00:41:04] Wil: Yeah. And now I’m at the point where, like, I just went to Africa a few weeks ago- 

[00:41:09] Aaron: Yeah … 

[00:41:09] Wil: um, and had an incredible experience there. I did not sing a note. It’s evolved now into doing, like I’m in m- I m- I met with the Prime Minister of Namibia. How cool is that? What? Right? And I don’t mean to take, uh, uh… I was there as a part of a group- 

[00:41:22] Brad: Yeah.

[00:41:22] Wil: Mm-hmm … that did all the hard work. I, I was there very much as part of that entourage. Um, and so I… But I had a front row seat to this, and so, you know, I’m always gonna make music. It’s important to me. And again, I try to bring a level of artfulness to everything I do, but ag- I, I guess I’m leaning more… If I, if there’s aesthetic and there’s truth, I’m more on the truth side now than ever before, right?

[00:41:44] Wil: Yeah. That’s, I’m kinda leaning into that- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm Yeah … side of it- Mm-hmm … if that makes sense. 

[00:41:48] Aaron: So how did you, so you guys, guys, where did you guys meet? 

[00:41:51] Wil: We met through Lee Burns, right? Yeah. 

[00:41:53] Brad: Yeah, we met through Lee Burns. 

[00:41:54] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:41:55] Aaron: Oh, 

[00:41:55] Wil: wow. Mutual buds. Yeah. 

[00:41:57] Aaron: Okay. Okay. 

[00:41:57] Wil: Yep. Yeah, and Lee- I enjoyed very much, uh, [00:42:00] the, the podcast episode with him.

[00:42:00] Wil: You watched Lee’s… Yeah. I sure did. Yeah. Yeah, Lee and I have known each other… He knew my wife. They were in a play together a million years ago that she produced, and they both starred in. Oh, wow. And I’ve just known, I mean, easily over 20 years now. 

[00:42:11] Aaron: Wow. 

[00:42:11] Wil: Yeah. Yeah. It’s fun, it’s fun to see people grow up.

[00:42:14] Wil: Yeah. You know what I mean? 

[00:42:15] Aaron: Yeah, 

[00:42:15] Wil: absolutely. And to see, I mean, not that, not he, he, neither he nor I are very particularly grown up, but- I was gonna say- But we’re, we’re older at least … aged. You’re aged. Yes. It’s fun to see people get gray hair, I guess I should say. 

[00:42:25] Aaron: Including myself. Oh. 

[00:42:26] Brad: Oh my God. Yeah. 

[00:42:27] Aaron: So, so, well, how did you get into Scientology?

[00:42:32] Wil: Through the music business. 

[00:42:33] Aaron: Oh, really? 

[00:42:34] Wil: So, yeah. Really? It was a, it was a music producer. So the guy that I was talking about who flew me out to LA- Yeah … he introduced this other guy. He said, “I’m gonna, I’m gonna bring in the…” And again, I don’t know anything about anything. I don’t know, understand how anything works.

[00:42:45] Wil: People are being nice to me. They’re saying nice things. They’re telling me I could do this for a living. Yeah. “And I’m gonna introduce you to this guy. He makes stuff happen.” I’m like, “Great. Sounds good.” And so he comes in, and, uh, and is immediately engaging, like commands the [00:43:00] room, knows what he’s talking about.

[00:43:01] Wil: Mm. Takes me out to lunch or dinner or something and says, “Here’s how I would do it if I were you.” And he basically gives me career advice. He says, “Put a band together and start touring.” Um, and so one thing led to another, and I ended up signing to his independent record label- 

[00:43:16] Aaron: Mm … 

[00:43:16] Wil: which then became a deal with Warner Brothers.

[00:43:18] Wil: Like it all, that’s sort of how the whole thing evolved. 

[00:43:21] Aaron: Oh, 

[00:43:21] Wil: wow. And I think as much as anything, like to try to get me, get my head on straight, like, “Let’s get this guy on the right path,” he brought me into Celebrity Centre International- Mm … in, in Los Angeles, which was one of the major- Mm-hmm … churches there, and introduced me to the folks there and said, “You can do courses here.”

[00:43:38] Wil: Um, and I j- again, I didn’t know anything about it and never heard of it, and I just did a course, and I was like, “Huh.” That makes sense. This is not like anything else I’ve ever done at all. They’re not asking me to believe anything. I’m not taking anything on faith. I’m not pledging allegiance to anything or anybody.

[00:43:56] Wil: It’s just like, “Are you having a problem with this?” Or, “Do you know how [00:44:00] this works? Well, check this out. What, what do you think about this? Does this make sense?” I’m like, “Yeah, actually, that does make sense.” And then you apply a little piece of it, and then you get a better outcome from that situation than you’ve ever gotten in your life, right?

[00:44:11] Wil: Like, you’ve had a problem, you didn’t know how to deal with it, and then you get this piece of information that says, “If you’re dealing with this, then do this.” And then you do it, and it works better than anything’s ever worked for you in your life. You’re like, “Oh my God,” it’s like, “This stuff works.” And so then you’re like, “All right, what else you got?

[00:44:26] Wil: And I have a problem with this, and this, and this, and this, and can you help me out?” And that’s… And it’s kind of literally one thing leads to another, here I am over 20 years later. Amazing. Still doing that to this day. Yeah. I go in like, “Guys, I’m having a problem with this. You got a reference? You got something you can show me?

[00:44:40] Wil: Can you help me out with this?” And- Yeah … and, and the beauty for me is that there is always a very specific, concrete, real world, sensible answer. And it doesn’t matter if the question is about business or my marriage or being a parent or existential who am I and what- Mm-hmm … is this [00:45:00] all about? Mm-hmm. You can ask the most esoteric thing or the most concrete thing, and the answer is equally specific and sensible no matter what the question is.

[00:45:10] Wil: That’s my favorite part about it. It just makes sense. 

[00:45:13] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:45:13] Wil: And it is what it says it is, and if you apply it the way it says to apply it, it fricking works Is it? Yeah. End of story. 

[00:45:20] Brad: Nice. 

[00:45:21] Wil: Right? 

[00:45:21] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:45:21] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:45:22] Brad: How did you meet your wife? 

[00:45:24] Wil: Uh, also at Celebrity Center. 

[00:45:25] Brad: Oh, really? 

[00:45:26] Wil: So yeah, so we had both been taking classes and things there for, like, a couple years, and never laid eyes on this person.

[00:45:32] Wil: Uh, and I had been with a person, um, it was challenging. We had met in college, a lot going on on both sides. Yeah, yeah. Not a great relationship. And I’d gotten out of that. We, we should’ve dated about six months, we were together six years. 

[00:45:45] Brad: Wow. 

[00:45:45] Wil: Finally had the- I 

[00:45:46] Brad: wouldn’t know anything about 

[00:45:47] Wil: that. Yeah. I finally had the courage-

[00:45:49] Wil: to exit stage left. And was like, “No more of that for a while.” Yeah. I’m good. Just gonna be a- No more women. I’m just… Yeah. I’m just gonna be- Okay … a monk for a minute. 

[00:45:58] Brad: Oh, good man. 

[00:45:59] Wil: Yeah, and I was [00:46:00] like- 

[00:46:00] Brad: Wow. 

[00:46:00] Wil: Yeah, that lasted a long time, obviously. 

[00:46:02] Brad: A few 

[00:46:03] Wil: minutes. And so, yeah, like, of course it did. Um, but, but, but funnily enough, it was truly since- Okay, 

[00:46:08] Brad: so you weren’t, you weren’t a monk.

[00:46:09] Brad: I was gonna be like, that was the opposite of what I did when I- Yeah. 

[00:46:11] Wil: When my 

[00:46:12] Brad: first marriage ended. I was like, “I’m free.” 

[00:46:15] Wil: Yeah. No, you know what? It’s funny, I, I, I sort of tried to go down that road- Yeah … and I just realized, like, I’m a cheese ball romantic at heart. Yeah. I wanted to be married when I was six years old- Yeah

[00:46:25] Wil: and I can’t explain it. Well, yeah. I just, like, if I find my person, like, that’s it. Yeah. And that’s what happened, is that I walked in and I saw her in this room, and I just had this tiny little fleeting thought, “That’s the kind of woman that I should be with.” Oh, wow. That’s the… Like instant- like, it was love at first sight for me.

[00:46:40] Wil: And I, I just dismissed it. I wasn’t like… And therefore I’m gonna go talk to her, ’cause I was like, “I’m not doing this, I’m not doing the ladies.” You were still in 

[00:46:47] Aaron: monk mode. 

[00:46:48] Wil: Totally. I was like- Yeah … and so was she, as it turned out. Yeah. Um, and so anyway, we met, we became friends. She ended up, she was dating another guy that I knew, and I was like, “Okay, I gotta behave myself here,” right?

[00:46:58] Wil: And I did. [00:47:00] I did, kind of. I was- Dude, that’s the best way 

[00:47:02] Brad: to get a woman interested, 

[00:47:03] Wil: is behave yourself. I was over, I was overly, I was overly nice to her probably. I paid a little bit more attention than I probably should’ve. But I fundamentally behaved myself. And then, uh, months later, we’d been friends for months and we were hanging out, and she finally sort of let it…

[00:47:16] Wil: Because I’m a touring musician. 

[00:47:19] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:47:19] Wil: I know when a woman is flirting with me. It happened almost every night of, I’m, I’m playing a show. It’s like, women like when you get up and serenade them, right? 

[00:47:26] Aaron: Yeah. 

[00:47:26] Wil: So I know what that looks like. No game with this woman, like zero, none. And I’m like, “But she’s, she-” But she’s, she had a 

[00:47:33] Aaron: boyfriend.

[00:47:34] Wil: And it was- No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no. Not even, even after that. Okay, okay. Like months after that. And she’s, and we’re just hanging out, and I just like her so much, she’s just such a great person, and she’s a beautiful woman. It’s, like, not hard to spend time with her, right? I’m like, “All right, fine.” Like, I, I, I’ll have her as my friend.

[00:47:48] Wil: This is new for me. Yeah. I like this, you know? Yeah. And, and that’s totally fine with me. And then finally she was like, “Yeah, dude, I’m like, I’m into you.” I was like, “What?” And like four months later, I proposed or something. 

[00:47:59] Brad: Oh, 

[00:47:59] Wil: [00:48:00] wow. I was like, “Let’s do this.” 

[00:48:00] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:48:01] Wil: Yeah. I was all in. 

[00:48:03] Brad: That’s 

[00:48:03] Wil: beautiful. And like Flint, 21 years, like, last week, so- 

[00:48:07] Aaron: Wow

[00:48:07] Aaron: we made it. Congratulations, dude. Yeah. Well done. 

[00:48:10] Wil: Yeah. She’s the best. So then, 

[00:48:11] Aaron: and, and you, you mentioned you have one child. 

[00:48:14] Wil: Yes. 

[00:48:15] Aaron: And how was 

[00:48:16] Wil: that a- Not for lack of lobbying on my part. So that was a funny thing. Like, like I, I was hardcore lobbied her, lobbied her like 15 years ago or something. Like, come on, I really wanted a daughter.

[00:48:25] Wil: I was like, “Just one more. Come on, let’s do this.” Mm. And just at the time, again, like financially, logistically, she was like, “I don’t think we’re gonna pull that off very well.” Mm-hmm. “I think it’s gonna be just too much, too stressful.” Um, and it’s like, “All right, fine,” and I shut the door on that. And then like, I don’t know, three years ago or something, she was like, “You know, we could…”

[00:48:43] Wil: I was like, “Lady, look at me.” “I’m old and busted. Look at me.” But now it’s funny, but- 

[00:48:51] Aaron: How old was she when she was r- tell me. 

[00:48:53] Wil: She, she was like, we’re… Well, God, she’s gonna murder me for saying any of this. Um, so like late 40s she was saying. 

[00:48:59] Aaron: Yeah. Okay, okay. 

[00:48:59] Wil: Yeah. [00:49:00] But, but funnily enough- And she was 

[00:49:01] Brad: like, “Let’s, let’s have another one.”

[00:49:01] Brad: 100%. 

[00:49:02] Wil: Oh, wow. And funnily enough, like we’ve had multiple friends do that, and I actually- Yeah … probably could have done that if I’d got my head out of my rear end. Yeah, well there’s a, there’s a- And, and now I’m sitting around thinking about it 

[00:49:11] Aaron: like- Oh, man … 

[00:49:12] Wil: probably should’ve said yes. Well, you know, make hay while the sun’s shining, you know?

[00:49:16] Wil: Yeah. But whatever. 

[00:49:17] Aaron: Yeah. We’re, we’re, we’re good. There’s a, there’s a, a, a person that, um, she’s a Scientologist as well, uh, pregnancy over 40. 

[00:49:24] Wil: Mm. 

[00:49:24] Aaron: Uh, Chia Mosley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She had her first baby at 47. 

[00:49:26] Wil: I’ve seen 

[00:49:27] Aaron: that. And so that’s, uh, that’s like a whole thing, you follow it. You’ve mentioned this, you’ve mentioned this.

[00:49:30] Aaron: Yeah. I’m just saying. Um- Yeah. 

[00:49:31] Wil: Yeah … 

[00:49:31] Aaron: so we should probably bring her on the podcast. Yeah, 

[00:49:31] Wil: we should. Anything, anything is possible nowadays, you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, it’s- It’s true … it’s kind of amazing. 

[00:49:35] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:49:36] Wil: Yeah. Okay. But anyway, we’re very, we’re very pleased. The three of us. It’s the three- Yeah. I, I literally have a tattoo.

[00:49:41] Wil: It’s the Three Musketeers. I don’t know if you can see. 

[00:49:42] Aaron: Oh, wow. 

[00:49:43] Brad: Look at that. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:49:44] Wil: Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s always been the three of us, so it’s cute. 

[00:49:46] Brad: Yeah. That is cute. 

[00:49:47] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:49:48] Brad: Uh, what… You know, in the intro I mentioned the pre- what’s the name of it again? The Presidential Volunteer Service Award? 

[00:49:54] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:49:54] Brad: Is that right?

[00:49:55] Brad: Oh, my God- Yes, I hope 

[00:49:56] Wil: I have that right … what- It’s been a while since I looked at it. I don’t sleep with it under my pillow … 

[00:49:59] Brad: [00:50:00] to, to what did he owe the honor? 

[00:50:02] Wil: Oh, it really just, uh, doing these human rights tours 

[00:50:05] Brad: Really? 

[00:50:05] Wil: So yeah, just going around the country. It, I mean, at, at that point it was in the US, I’ve done it all over the world, but I did in, in 20- And 

[00:50:11] Brad: that’s the ones in the schools 

[00:50:12] Wil: Yeah

[00:50:12] Wil: like, like Rock for Human Rights. In 2018, uh, I think it was the 70- 70th anniversary of the, of the Universal Dec- Declaration of Human Rights. Mm-hmm. And so I said, “Okay, we’re gonna do 30 cities in 30 days celebrating 30 human rights.” 

[00:50:24] Aaron: Wow. 

[00:50:25] Wil: Wow. It was a terrible idea. That is intense. Yeah, guys. It was the worst idea ever.

[00:50:28] Wil: But you did it. Yeah. But you did it. But I did it anyway. Okay. So we literally did 15,000 miles in five weeks. Mm. I literally broke my body. Yeah. Like I, I d- I literally had to go to physical therapy, my hip was so locked up from just sitting- Wow … in the van and driving- Yeah … and just pressing the, the, the, the pedal.

[00:50:44] Wil: Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And then standing around and you had to like schlepping gear and doing the shows, but it was amazing. And we went literally, we started in Florida and we basically did a loop all the way to California, Oregon, Washington, around, down the middle of the country, then kind of back up through Chicago again, then up to the northeast and then down the East [00:51:00] Coast.

[00:51:00] Brad: Wow. 

[00:51:00] Wil: So it was so fun. And I went with some dear friends, and they were amazing. You- We still talk about it … 

[00:51:05] Brad: that’s amazing. Do you have a rough idea of like how many people you performed or like r- like- 

[00:51:09] Wil: It was 10… It was well north of 10,000. 

[00:51:14] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:51:15] Wil: Like maybe close to 20,000 I think. Yeah, ’cause again, these are like, if you’re gonna play for a school you can’t just do one classroom, right?

[00:51:21] Wil: Yeah, yeah, you all play. Yeah. So it’s like, it’s fi- you know, 350 to 1,000 kids at most shows. 

[00:51:25] Brad: Wow. 

[00:51:26] Wil: So yeah. 

[00:51:27] Brad: Oh, 

[00:51:27] Wil: that’s great. Yeah, 

[00:51:27] Aaron: it was great. And, and when you do a show like what songs do you play? Like, like 

[00:51:31] Wil: how- That’s an excellent question. Yeah. Uh, so I’m, I wrote several songs based on human rights- Okay

[00:51:37] Wil: precepts, and then I modified some of my songs as well. And, and you can… Like o- one of those is the right to marriage. Mm. Just literally, it was mar- The song’s called The Right to Marriage? No, no, no. That’d be a little on the nose. Like- I try, I try, I try to make it- “I’m gonna 

[00:51:51] Aaron: play The Right to Marriage everyone.”

[00:51:54] Wil: A real catchy song called- … The Human Right to Marriage. No, it’s marriage and, marriage and family right- Okay … is one of [00:52:00] the human rights. And, and again, these are, these are beautiful simplifications of the legal language, right? Yeah. But, but yeah, so I’m giving you kind of the- Sure, sure … the broad strokes.

[00:52:08] Wil: Mm-hmm. But, but that’s the concept. You, you have the right to marriage and a family, and so that’s every love song ever written. Right. Pretty much. Yep. So I could kind of play with that a little. Wait, 

[00:52:15] Brad: I, I have an interrupting question. In the way that it’s written The, I hope this question isn’t gonna be in trouble.

[00:52:22] Brad: I- is it written to like, you get, like you have the human right to choose who you are in a relationship with? Is that… Do you know? 

[00:52:30] Wil: I, I don’t, I don’t wanna like- Fine. Fine, fine … we should, we should sit here and read it- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and put it up, like, like, like bring it up verbatim. Okay, fine. ‘Cause again, I don’t wanna do,

[00:52:37] Wil: and I’m not a lawyer. 

[00:52:38] Brad: Yeah, yeah, 

[00:52:38] Wil: yeah. Um, so- Wanna 

[00:52:41] Brad: bring it up? 

[00:52:41] Aaron: I’ll always bring it up. I’m gonna… Yeah, you just keep going. You keep going. You keep going. Let’s 

[00:52:42] Wil: go. Yeah, so the Universal Declaration- Okay … I don’t remember which number it is, but yeah. Fine. Fine. Sorry. But the right to marriage and family. I interrupted 

[00:52:46] Brad: the song.

[00:52:47] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:52:48] Wil: It’s totally fine. 

[00:52:48] Brad: You were about to sing it. 

[00:52:49] Wil: So that, so that’s- You’re about to sing it, Will … so I, I would write songs and be like No, I’m just kidding. We can do an extra… I actually have videos made and stuff of those songs. I actually co-wrote a song with a friend. I brought him over for two different tours from [00:53:00] Zimbabwe, and we wrote a song together, um, called Candle, and you can find it.

[00:53:03] Wil: His name’s Alexio Kuwara, Kuwara, if I say it correctly. Yeah. And, uh, he’s just an amazing guy, and we wrote a song together, so based on one of the precepts. Yeah. So we play that. So it’s, it’s that song, songs like that. 

[00:53:14] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:53:15] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:53:15] Brad: Yeah. It’s fun. What, uh, I, I was, I was thinking about this earlier as something I wanted to ask you, but, um, what do you…

[00:53:22] Brad: Like in today’s world, it, you know, it can kinda seem we’re in 2026, it’s like the world is so civilized, and we have the internet, and we have social media, and AI, and blah, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? But there’s still some pretty serious human rights situations going on. Um, if, if you had to say, like, what, what is kinda like the situation in terms of human rights that- 

[00:53:45] Wil: Hmm

[00:53:45] Brad: like would grab your attention most as like, “This needs, needs to be handled,” like- 

[00:53:49] Wil: Yeah … 

[00:53:50] Brad: like high priority? 

[00:53:51] Wil: So I’ll, I’ll ask you guys a question, and you might know m- much more than the average audience member, but I’ll ask you- Yeah … a question I’ve asked every audience all over the world every time I’ve done [00:54:00] these performances.

[00:54:01] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:54:02] Wil: What would you say the height of the slave trade was, if you had to estimate? I know, I know you’re not gonna give me an exact year, but like some kind of relative, like within 10 years, the height of the, when, when the slave trade was at its height- 

[00:54:14] Aaron: Today … 

[00:54:14] Wil: historically. 

[00:54:15] Aaron: Today. 

[00:54:16] Wil: You’re right. 

[00:54:16] Brad: Oh. 

[00:54:17] Wil: But n- Today

[00:54:17] Wil: you are the on- Are you serious? You are the only person I’ve ever asked that question to in any sort of public forum that had that answer. Yep. So there are, there are m- Because 

[00:54:25] Aaron: I’m in it, dude … there- I’m, I’m, I’m like, human rights, we interview human rights people, like- That- There is more s- Yeah … like that is- Yeah, yeah, yeah

[00:54:30] Aaron: and that’s in the videos too. Yeah. 

[00:54:31] Wil: There are many, many, many more slaves now than there have ever been- Correct … in human history. Right. And, and I’m not talking s- like, like- We’re, we’re talking- The fact that they even call it human trafficking, they should just- Yeah … call it slavery. Correct. Oh. D- can you imagine the difference in PR impact if every time someone said human trafficking they said slavery?

[00:54:47] Wil: Yes. Yeah. Like, people don’t, like th- Yeah, why don’t we just 

[00:54:50] Brad: get that 

[00:54:50] Wil: changed? Minds are blown at every age, up to medical school students that I’ve talked to, when I give them that information. Nobody can believe it. 

[00:54:58] Aaron: Yep. 

[00:54:58] Wil: And it’s because, oh, human trafficking’s a [00:55:00] big problem, yeah. It’s like, it almost sounds- Yeah, it’s, it’s- I hate to say this

[00:55:03] Wil: this sounds ridiculous- It’s whitewashing … but it sounds cool or something. Is it, huh? Oh yeah, that human trafficking problem. It sounds sophisticated. Wow. It’s not. It is 

[00:55:09] Aaron: slaves. 

[00:55:09] Wil: It’s- 

[00:55:09] Aaron: Slavery … 

[00:55:10] Wil: slavery. Simple. Yeah. And especially sex slavery, but not only that. That’s, is, 

[00:55:13] Aaron: is that the 

[00:55:14] Wil: biggest- Yeah … but it’s, and, or, or- Is that the biggest one, do you know?

[00:55:16] Aaron: Yes. 

[00:55:16] Wil: It is, yeah, okay. But organ trafficking, like it’s just all sorts of horrible things. Basically, getting anyone to do anything they don’t wanna do and not exchanging with them for it- Mm-hmm … is slavery. Yep. Yeah And it takes different forms in different cultures. Florida, the state that we’re in right now, huge corridor for human trafficking.

[00:55:30] Wil: Mm. It’s, it’s horrible. Yep. And, and it’s just, it’s, again, it’s just so not okay. Do you ever see, uh, you 

[00:55:35] Aaron: saw, did you see Operation 

[00:55:38] Wil: Toussaint? Yes. 

[00:55:39] Aaron: It is so good. And every- Yeah … everybody should watch the documentary. It’s on, uh, Prime Video. Yeah. Believe it’s free if you’re a Prime member. 

[00:55:43] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:55:43] Aaron: Operation Toussaint- Yeah

[00:55:44] Aaron: and, uh, the guy, man, I forget the guy’s name. Anyway, he’s like a big, uh, uh, guy against, um- Mm … slavery, okay? Yeah. But he, he makes a very- 

[00:55:52] Brad: We should, we should actually, as a, as a serious thing, we should actually just get that rebranded to slavery. 

[00:55:58] Wil: I couldn’t, I couldn’t agree more. 

[00:55:59] Brad: [00:56:00] Yeah. 

[00:56:00] Aaron: Yeah. That’s true. That’s true.

[00:56:00] Brad: Sorry, continue. 

[00:56:02] Aaron: Okay, so, uh- ‘Cause that would work … anyway- Yeah … he talks about something and I, and I, I’m gonna get back to this ’cause I f- I have the article in front of me for the other one, but he makes a very good point on this. Mm. I think the crux of the matter, the, the, the real true… I don’t know. What I see as the biggest problem with slavery, and specifically sex slavery, which I think is, is the majority one, is that our generation is so hooked on porn.

[00:56:29] Brad: 100%. Yeah. 

[00:56:30] Aaron: 100, yes. That’s right. The porn is so intense, and people are so on it, and they, they… That’s, and he talks about it in, in this documentary, Operation Jesed. 

[00:56:37] Brad: Yeah. 

[00:56:37] Aaron: And it gets more, and more, and more, and then they’re looking up more sick things, and then eventually they’re like, they don’t get satisfied with that, and they wanna get deeper.

[00:56:43] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:43] Aaron: And it’s just that when you don’t regard someone’s respect, their, like, their body as sacred, there, there’s no, there’s no respect. 

[00:56:50] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[00:56:50] Aaron: And eventually you start going down that rabbit hole, and that’s really the beginning. And, and that’s why, I mean, I, I’ve, I think the last time I saw any porn was at 17 years old- [00:57:00] Yeah

[00:57:00] Aaron: okay, when I realized it’s actually messing up my own life. 

[00:57:02] Wil: Mm-hmm. 

[00:57:02] Aaron: And like- 

[00:57:03] Wil: Yeah 

[00:57:04] Aaron: That it’s not a very common thing. I think as, as, as, as religion gets attacked, as like- 

[00:57:10] Wil: 100% … 

[00:57:10] Aaron: goody two-shoes get… Like, it- it’s almost like- 

[00:57:12] Brad: Goody 

[00:57:12] Aaron: two-shoes … the cool thing- Yeah, that’s… Yeah, that’s right … the, the cool thing is to go around and, and whatever, go to the strip thing, go- You do you, do you

[00:57:18] Aaron: but the, the, the, the hubs of this- Mm-hmm … trafficking is at, close to the strip clubs. 

[00:57:21] Wil: Right. 

[00:57:22] Aaron: In the strip clubs. Like- Oh, 

[00:57:23] Wil: 100% … it, it’s- Yeah, yeah … it’s- I, I’ve seen it happen. I saw, I saw s- a woman and I ripped her, I ripped into her. Like, I almost, I wouldn’t hit a woman, but I was like, “You’re evil. You’re an evil person.”

[00:57:32] Wil: She was talking to these young girls, and I could tell where the conversation was going. Mm. And it just… This is at a gas station parking lot in Orlando or something. I was just late night just traveling somewhere. Mm-hmm. I had nothing to do with anything, and I just wanted to… I wanted to take this woman out.

[00:57:45] Wil: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, “You, you are the devil.” Yeah. But I think you’re exactly right. The, the way that I describe it to people, especially young people, nobody does heroin because it doesn’t feel incredible. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. If you, if it doesn’t kill you, [00:58:00] it feels incredible. Yeah. That’s why people do drugs.

[00:58:03] Wil: That’s why the, the, that’s why people overeat l- sugar to the point where they, they have to get their feet amputated. Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. And they won’t stop eating sugar. Mm-hmm. Mm. But it doesn’t, it, it’s because it- The, the addiction is there … yes. Yeah. It’s, it is an addiction, and porn, one million percent, is heroin.

[00:58:22] Wil: That’s right. It’s sugar. It’s every terrible thing that, that’s bad for you. And don’t, especially as a young person and you’re trying to get away from it or whatever, don’t feel bad if you want to watch it. Of course you want to watch it. You’re literally going through withdrawal. 

[00:58:36] Aaron: Mm. It’s a, it’s a- But if you can get it-

[00:58:37] Aaron: it’s kind of like the sugar. Like, if you take sugar- Yeah … you’re gonna want it more, and more, and more. 

[00:58:40] Wil: 100%. 

[00:58:40] Aaron: And the body, it’s, I mean, it’s almost like a, a bo- the instinct. Yeah. The bodies were made, we were made in a- Mm-hmm … in however we’re made. 

[00:58:46] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:58:47] Aaron: But the point is that that drive to create, and sex, and all the whole thing- Yeah

[00:58:51] Aaron: that’s, it’s, it’s part of who we’re born with. We’re born with that desire. 

[00:58:53] Wil: Yeah. 

[00:58:53] Aaron: Now, are you gonna channel it into destroying someone else’s- Yeah, right … respect and- But, but you could get- … and dignity, or are you gonna put [00:59:00] it into something else? 

[00:59:01] Wil: The thing that I tell people is, again, especially young people, g- guys, you, you can get away from it.

[00:59:07] Wil: I’m, as I’m sure- Yeah … you experienced, like when you’re 17. And, and at first it’s probably like, “I kinda miss it. It’s kind of awesome, and I know it’s terrible, but it’s kind of awesome, but it’s terrible.” And then you get to a point where it’s just out of your life- Yep. Mm-hmm … completely, and then it’s infinitely easier.

[00:59:22] Wil: Yep. You get enough distance from it, and, and especially, like in, in my case, like I have the love of my life, and we have… It’s just, it’s just the two of us in the room. Mm-hmm. And if I could explain to so many young people more than anything, ’cause I’m a romantic by nature- The less you bring your ghosts and your baggage into the bedroom- 

[00:59:41] Brad: Yeah

[00:59:41] Wil: with the person that you actually do care about, the happier you’re both gonna be. 

[00:59:45] Brad: Yep. 

[00:59:46] Wil: The, the closest you can make that room and that experience to just the two of you, the better it’s gonna be, full stop. 

[00:59:53] Brad: Yep. 

[00:59:53] Wil: And this idea that you have to sleep with 20 people and all that, I, you know, I t- I mean, I get up in people’s faces.

[00:59:58] Wil: I’m like, “It’s the same [01:00:00] damn thing. I’m sorry, but it is.” Mm-hmm. Physically, it is the same experience every single time. It’s about the two people involved- Yeah … and who do you wanna be with and, and, and what do you, how do, how do you wanna create together? Yeah. And, and so I just think everything that we’re talking about, it’s just, it’s so important to have these conversations, to have them very publicly.

[01:00:20] Wil: Yep. I think it’s important for guys to have these conversations. And for me, again, the thing that I love about something like Scientology, I admire and respect and appreciate so much. I was at an event last night, uh, for, with a, with a, a s- with Christian pastors, and they were talking about human trafficking, they were talking about the sex industry and all these things.

[01:00:39] Wil: And for them, it’s belief in God, it’s, and it’s the power of prayer- 100% … and it’s, and it’s walking in Jesus’ footsteps. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I admire them so much, and I love that that’s the solution that they found- Mm-hmm … and that it works for them, and they help other people find that solution. That’s amazing, and I, and I love that, and I love that they’re out there doing that work.

[01:00:57] Wil: What I needed was something that was [01:01:00] fact-based, that was information-based, where I just got to make my own decision for myself as myself, and that was it. 

[01:01:07] Aaron: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:07] Wil: Yeah. And that’s what Scientology’s done for me. It just allows me to make decisions, w- what, what is the, the greatest good for me- 

[01:01:15] Aaron: Mm-hmm … 

[01:01:15] Wil: and my life and the people that I care about and my relationships or the way that I’m trying to live.

[01:01:19] Wil: And, and there’s, there are real solutions there, that, that, like, w- whether or not… ‘Cause I, I’ve done, you know, I don’t need to get into all the details. I, I did a drug or two when I was young, um, as a musician- Yeah … it turns out. Yeah. They were around. 

[01:01:31] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:01:32] Wil: And that was another thing that, uh, it was, it was Scientology that, that just made me stop 100% cold turkey.

[01:01:39] Wil: Mm. Because I was able to see exactly what it was- Mm-hmm … what it was doing to me- 

[01:01:43] Brad: Yeah … 

[01:01:44] Wil: mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. And it was- 

[01:01:47] Brad: Would you say made or allowed you to stop? 

[01:01:50] Wil: Oh, uh, well, it ga- well, it gave me the clarity and the information I needed to make a fully self-determined- Mm … and very aware decision.

[01:01:58] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:01:58] Wil: This is not [01:02:00] the person that I wanna be, this is not how I wanna live my life, and so I’m just not gonna do that anymore. 

[01:02:04] Brad: Yeah. Beautiful. For, for me, when, when I found Scientology, which is recent, like five years ago. 

[01:02:08] Wil: Yeah. 

[01:02:09] Brad: The, I didn’t, I didn’t do drugs- Good on you … and I didn’t, I didn’t drink alcohol at the time.

[01:02:12] Wil: Right. 

[01:02:12] Brad: And I still don’t real- like, I was in Scotland. Like yeah, I, I tasted some, some Scotch whisky- Right, right … when I was in Scotland a couple weeks ago. 

[01:02:18] Wil: I mean, come on. 

[01:02:19] Brad: A little bit. Fine, fine. I could not. Come on. But it’s not an issue. 

[01:02:21] Wil: You’re only 

[01:02:21] Brad: human. But, but the only, the only drug that I was hooked on absolutely at that point was pornography.

[01:02:26] Wil: Right. 

[01:02:27] Brad: And what occurred is I, I basically did some, I got some counseling. Mm. And, and I just noticed, like, how much of my problems in life, completely self-created, by the way- Yeah … pulled back to- Aren’t they all? … the decision of looking at pornography. 100%. Like, all, all that, that kind of thing. 

[01:02:47] Wil: Yeah. 

[01:02:47] Brad: And at a certain point, I had literally just, like, told my, uh, the council’s called an auditor, I just told my auditor so many times, like, “Oh,” and then it started with boom, like, this bad decision to look at porn.

[01:02:57] Brad: Eventually I was like, “I’m just not gonna do this anymore.” There’s a [01:03:00] 

[01:03:00] Wil: pattern 

[01:03:00] Brad: here. I was like- Yeah, yeah, yeah … this is the same thing again- Yeah, yeah, yeah … and again and again. And I was like, “I’m done with this.” Yeah. ‘Cause I’m like, this is just a waste of time- Yeah … for me to even ta- I’m like, “I’m not gonna do this anymore.”

[01:03:10] Wil: Yeah. 

[01:03:10] Brad: Um, and then what really… So I, that kind of like helped me to, to distance it ’cause I saw the actual effect it was having on me. Right. The other thing is I couldn’t channel… I was like, “I gotta do all this stuff,” but I couldn’t seem to channel- Right … the creative ability- Right … into building anything.

[01:03:25] Brad: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

[01:03:25] Wil: It literally degrades you. 100%. And, and that’s the thing. And I, and I’m, again, you, we’re, we’re talking, like, almost metaphysical things. We’re talking spiritual things- Mm-hmm … emotional things. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But one, one of the other things that I just love about Scientology so much, it’s, it’s measurable.

[01:03:39] Wil: It’s- I was just gonna say- Yes … that literally 

[01:03:40] Brad: I was going to say it’s measurable. Yes. 

[01:03:41] Wil: It’s, it’s- You can 

[01:03:42] Brad: put it on a graph … 

[01:03:43] Wil: and it mechanically degrades you. 

[01:03:46] Brad: Yes. Mm. 

[01:03:47] Wil: I just am doing this thing right now within the church, um, and, and it, it mechanically raises your ability to confront and handle life. 

[01:03:59] Brad: Mm.

[01:03:59] Wil: Like, you [01:04:00] start it and your own perception under yourself, you can measure how you’re operating, how you’re making decisions, how well things are going in your life, in all these various areas of your life. And then you do this thing, and then you come out the other side of it and you measure all those things again, and they’ve all drastically, night and day, improved.

[01:04:21] Wil: And you haven’t changed anything else in your life. You haven’t done anything else. This is a short period of time that this is happening. And it really reinforced to me this, this isn’t just subjective. It’s not all just in your head, although that’s, the, the, your thoughts and the thing, your worldview is the thing that matters.

[01:04:38] Wil: That’s where it starts, yeah. But, but it doesn’t, it’s not just that. Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:42] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:04:42] Wil: You, you, you are in a condition as a person every moment of your life, and you are the product of your decisions and your inputs and what you decide to focus on and what you decide to prioritize. And giving yourself every tool and advantage you can have- Mm-hmm

[01:04:58] Wil: is just gonna make your [01:05:00] selfish enjoyment of your own life experience better, right? And you deserve it. And I think, I think men are being shortchanged. Women are being tragically taken advantage of. 

[01:05:10] Aaron: Mm. 

[01:05:11] Wil: And it just, it just hurts everybody. No- nobody wins. 

[01:05:15] Aaron: Yeah. 

[01:05:15] Wil: Right? There’s no, ’cause you, you’re not building a culture, you’re not creating future generations.

[01:05:18] Wil: People are having fewer kids than they’ve ever had before. 

[01:05:21] Aaron: Yeah. 

[01:05:21] Wil: Mm-hmm. It’s like- It’s so sad … we’re, we’re, we, it’s, it’s time to flourish and create as a society. 

[01:05:25] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:05:25] Wil: But it also begins, I believe very strongly, in men standing up and saying to other men, young men especially need an example. You, you, you need to, you need to be able to hear as a young man, there’s nothing wrong with you.

[01:05:36] Wil: You’re not guilty. You’re not a terrible person. You’re not evil for this. This just isn’t good for you. 

[01:05:42] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:05:43] Aaron: Yep. 

[01:05:43] Wil: Selfishly for you- Yeah … for your own enjoyment- Yeah … of your own life- Mm. .. your own life experience. That, like, don’t set aside anything else. I know it might feel good. You are a functioning drug addict right now.

[01:05:53] Brad: Mm-hmm. That’s 

[01:05:54] Wil: right. And it’s not your fault. And p- and these evil people are making billions of dollars- 

[01:05:59] Brad: Yep … 

[01:05:59] Wil: making [01:06:00] sure that you’re addicted, and they do not care about you- Yep … or anybody in your life, or anybody in these videos- 

[01:06:05] Brad: Yep … 

[01:06:06] Wil: at all. They will throw them away and waste them because you’re making them money, and that’s all they care about.

[01:06:09] Brad: Yep. 

[01:06:10] Wil: And once you really get people to understand that, and, and they can understand it’s, it’s okay to feel conflicted as a young man. But I really, it’s really kind of awesome in this weird way, but it’s also terrible. Yes, that’s exactly right. 

[01:06:24] Brad: Yep. 

[01:06:24] Wil: And part of being a man is being able to restrain yourself and focus yourself.

[01:06:29] Wil: The, the analogy I give people, guys are like laser cannons. We’re gonna shoot something. We, you need to point us in the right direction. Yeah. We can either be incredibly constructive and, and cut this beautiful, perfect line into a slab of granite and carve a monument, or we can blow up our house accidentally.

[01:06:49] Wil: It’s just about pointing the laser. 

[01:06:51] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:51] Wil: Mm-hmm. And the, the best relationships I know, like my relationship with my wife, that woman knows how to point me in the right direction better than anybody I’ve ever met. Mm-hmm. She’s my best [01:07:00] friend. She’s the best friend I’ve ever had, and th- it’s that ability to be like, “All right, here he goes again.

[01:07:05] Wil: Hey, why don’t we go over here, honey? Why don’t we look at this thing instead of that thing- … and focus on this a little bit?” And I’m like, “You’re right. You’re right. Okay. Okay.” 

[01:07:13] Aaron: Yeah, I think, I mean, women really help us so much. I just feel like, uh- Yeah … I, I just think it’s, it’s a core thing that people miss when they get in that world of abuse and, and, and, and, I don’t know- Yeah

[01:07:23] Aaron: promiscuity or whatever it is, however you wanna call it. Like- Yeah … in that world, you miss the foundation of your life, which is a woman- Mm-hmm … who, who, who can guide you- And they’re 

[01:07:31] Wil: just- … and, and point your laser … the best thing ever, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like, when, when it’s great, there, there’s just, there’s nothing more awesome than a great relationship with a great woman, in my experience.

[01:07:40] Aaron: Absolutely. Completely. And that brings us back to Article 16 of the- Yes … Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 

[01:07:44] What 

[01:07:44] Wil: a segue. 

[01:07:45] Aaron: Which is- Crushed it … which is here. Oh, we got right back to it. Here we go. 

[01:07:48] Wil: That was amazing. “

[01:07:49] Aaron: Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family.

[01:07:58] Aaron: They are entitled to [01:08:00] equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.” 

[01:08:05] Brad: Mm. Ah. “2, 

[01:08:06] Aaron: marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses. And 3, the family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the state.”

[01:08:19] Wil: Amazing, 

[01:08:19] Brad: right? That says that on the UN- Yeah. What’s, what website is that on? 

[01:08:22] Aaron: Uh, I just searched it on Go- U- uh, un.org. On un.org. Un.org, yeah, yeah. 

[01:08:26] Brad: Wow. 

[01:08:26] Wil: Isn’t that, isn’t that amazing? 

[01:08:27] Brad: The fa- w- was it, can you do the last piece again? 

[01:08:29] Aaron: Hold on let me get it put it up on here. Just the, it’s 

[01:08:31] Wil: the fa- It’s basically the foundational unit.

[01:08:31] Aaron: “The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the state.” 

[01:08:38] Wil: Isn’t that so cool? So no child brides, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? You’re right. You’re, you’re, you- There’s no full age … it’s got, it’s gotta be two people of, of age- Yeah, yeah … and the ability to then rationally consent to the experience, right?

[01:08:50] Wil: And but, but it is, it ign- it acknowledges it is the core fundamental core building block of society. Yeah, of society. And it deserves our, our protection, our support, and our encouragement. 

[01:08:59] Brad: Dude. 

[01:08:59] Wil: It’s [01:09:00] cool Yeah. 

[01:09:01] Aaron: It’s a good, uh, that’s 

[01:09:03] Brad: a good thing to look- You know what I’m actually, you know what I’m actually, like, computing on right now is the fact that I’m not, I’m trying to locate where I got this information from.

[01:09:10] Brad: I had the information that the UN was bad. 

[01:09:13] Wil: Well, okay. W- and 

[01:09:15] Brad: I don’t- I, uh, 

[01:09:15] Wil: they’re not perfect … I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna shoot myself in the foot here- Yeah … or say, or say things on the, the r- the record, hi everyone- … that will come back to bite me later. Yeah, yeah. Let me, let me say this.

[01:09:25] Wil: Human institutions are very fragile things. 

[01:09:28] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:09:29] Wil: They are, uh, they’re predisposed to outside or other agendas coming in. 

[01:09:37] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:09:37] Wil: And part of, again, for me, the, the vital importance of education is to keep things back, d- d- bring things back to the root. Why, why was the- Mm-hmm … organization created? What was its original charter?

[01:09:49] Aaron: It’s not to- 

[01:09:50] Wil: Why is it important? 

[01:09:50] Aaron: It’s not- Yeah … it, it wasn’t founded there to arm rebels or- Yes … arm the resistance, which- Yeah … I think that’s occurred. Yeah. And so that’s a bit of the, the issue. But it, uh, I [01:10:00] take it back to, like, universities. Yeah. Are universities bad? Well, the beginning in universities changed education.

[01:10:06] Aaron: Yeah, yeah. That’s how people got educated. Before internet, before anything, you would h- almost have to go there ’cause- Mm-hmm … otherwise you can’t even listen to a person who’s a professional. Yeah. But now you can go anywhere, and universities have gone down, indoctrinated, et cetera. So you can say, “Are universities bad?”

[01:10:17] Aaron: Or, “Is that university bad?” 

[01:10:18] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:10:19] Aaron: Well, we can say, uh, parts of it are good and parts of it are absolutely herr- horrible. 

[01:10:23] Brad: Yeah, 

[01:10:23] Aaron: yeah. And, um, I, I, again, I won’t say it, but that’s- Yeah … I, I think that’s part of it. I don’t know too much. Yeah. I haven’t investigated too much into it. But I do, I, I’m aware or I’ve just seen or read- Yeah

[01:10:34] Aaron: that the UN has also armed and brought weapons into a scenario- Yeah, yeah, yeah … as opposed to being a educational piece- Yeah … uh, in, in some sense. And, and 

[01:10:42] Wil: my- the thing that I say to people whenever that kinda question comes up for me, I say, “I’m not here representing the UN.” 

[01:10:48] Brad: Mm-hmm. “

[01:10:48] Wil: I am here representing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.”

[01:10:52] Wil: Mm. We came together after what e- I think virtually everyone would agree was at the lowest point in human history. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We had killed [01:11:00] more people, we set off two atomic bombs- Yeah … we destroyed the planet all over- Mm-hmm … destroyed d- thousands of years of history and culture- Yeah … generations of people devastated.

[01:11:10] Wil: Yeah, true. And they came together and said, “We cannot keep doing this. We’ve done this twice now, and it’s getting worse.” 

[01:11:14] Brad: Yeah. “

[01:11:15] Wil: We have to have a better solution- A way worse the second time … and a better outcome.” 

[01:11:17] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:11:18] Wil: That’s what I’m fighting for- Yeah … is that original vision, that better solution, that better outcome.

[01:11:23] Wil: And I also believe very strongly in I’m a free speech absolutist. 

[01:11:28] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:29] Wil: Mm-hmm. I think that- Same … anyone should be able to say anything in public that they want- 

[01:11:33] Brad: Yep … 

[01:11:34] Wil: and the best argument should win. 

[01:11:36] Brad: Yep. 

[01:11:37] Wil: And you need to do a better job preparing and articulating your argument, and you need to appeal to people’s better angels, so to speak, just the b- every- everyone’s better nature, and you need to keep talking and keep communicating until you win.

[01:11:48] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:11:49] Wil: And, and I just as a, I don’t know if we have a s- a funny side note story. Yeah. Like, do, do we have time for that? Yeah, 

[01:11:55] Aaron: yeah. 

[01:11:55] Wil: Yeah, yeah. So, um, I, I went on this trip to Africa, um, again, I’m gonna, [01:12:00] I’m gonna regret probably s- telling this story probably, but- We can cut it, by 

[01:12:01] Aaron: the way, if you really 

[01:12:02] Wil: want. Uh, o- o- okay.

[01:12:03] Wil: Yeah. Um, so I went, uh, d- on this trip to Africa, it had an incredible experience, opened up this whole country potentially to human rights education. It’s just an amazing experience. I go back, I’m flying through Germany on the way back home, my childhood home, right? 

[01:12:16] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:12:17] Wil: And I’m exhausted. I’ve been, it, it’s been, I never quite settle into the time zone.

[01:12:22] Wil: It took me- Yep … 30 hours to get there. It’s gonna take me 30 hours to get home. I’ve done my first of two, like, 10-hour flights, and I’m, and I’ve come, and I, I go through immigration in Germany, and I see a sign, and I go and I ask this guy, who I think is, like, information or, like, rent-a-cop kind of person for the Munich Airport.

[01:12:42] Wil: He’s outside of this lounge. And I’m like, “Is this first class only, or is it business class?” ‘Cause I was flying business class. And he was an unbelievable jerk to me. 

[01:12:52] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:12:52] Wil: Like, there’s a particular German kind of rudeness that I grew e- that I experienced as a kid. 

[01:12:57] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:12:57] Wil: And I think it also, like, extra pissed me off ’cause [01:13:00] I like Germany.

[01:13:00] Wil: I have so much affinity for it, and I was like, “You’re not representing- this country well, bro, and I got into it. 

[01:13:07] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:13:07] Wil: And then I might or might not have called him a bad name in German, which was really stupid, and he stood up, and he was a cop. And I didn’t see that until he stood up and I saw his whole uniform.

[01:13:20] Wil: And it is illegal to insult anybody, not just a cop. It’s illegal to insult someone in public in Germany. You can be sent- No. What? … to jail. He was gonna put me in handcuffs and take me downstairs. I was gonna miss my flight home. He called in two other cops, and the funny thing is he didn’t know that I really spoke German.

[01:13:41] Wil: Yeah. So he’s on the phone with his supervisor, and he’s telling the story to the supervisor, and that’s not what happened. Mm. 

[01:13:46] Brad: Yeah, yeah, 

[01:13:47] Wil: yeah. And so he can hear me ’cause I’m talking to these people. I’m trying to basically, and funnily enough, I’m using what I know of the emotional tone scale- Mm … which is, uh, something you can learn in Scientology.

[01:13:58] Wil: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I’m trying to bring him up [01:14:00] from he’s, he’s at this tone of antagonism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. He’s just mad. Yeah. 

[01:14:04] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:04] Wil: Um, and he’s just in my face and just- Yeah … making me wrong over and over and over again, and I’m trying to just get him up into boredom- Boredom. Mm-hmm … which is right above.

[01:14:11] Wil: Yep. 

[01:14:11] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:14:11] Wil: Because then he’s just gonna get bored with it and be like, “All right, fine.” Were, 

[01:14:14] Brad: were you just hanging at bored? You’re just bored 

[01:14:15] Wil: with it? 100%. Yeah. And so instead of being like, “That’s not what I said, you’re wrong,” I didn’t get angry, I didn’t stay antagonistic. I just very quietly and gently said, but so he could hear it, I’m saying to the other cops, “That’s not actually what happened.”

[01:14:28] Wil: I said it very gently. I’m just like, “Look, guys, that’s not what happened.” Like conservative, right? Yeah. Yeah. Just, “No, th- this is how this went.” He made, he basically made it sound like I was trying to break into the first class lounge or something. Yeah. Oh, wow. He’s like, “Come on, man. That’s not how this went down.”

[01:14:41] Wil: And, and I finally asked him, I was like, “Look, do people ask you that question all the time?” He was like, “Yes.” 

[01:14:48] Brad: Ah. 

[01:14:48] Wil: And I said, “Is it annoying?” “Yes.” And it’s like, and I got the whole picture. 

[01:14:53] Brad: Mm. 

[01:14:54] Wil: He wants to be a cop. Mm-hmm. He’s this, he was this big, huge dude, right? Wow. Like muscles out to here. 

[01:14:59] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:14:59] Wil: And he’s [01:15:00] stuck behind this desk- Yeah

[01:15:01] Wil: in an airport, bored out of his mind. 

[01:15:03] Brad: Wow. 

[01:15:04] Wil: And people keep coming up to him, all languages, everybody’s disheveled and exhausted, not their best, “Excuse me, is this the right lounge?” “No. Go figure it out.” Like, “Leave me alone,” right? 

[01:15:16] Aaron: Yeah. 

[01:15:17] Wil: And I was just exhausted enough and an idiot enough that I just took the bait.

[01:15:21] Wil: And it was really, it was not my finest moment as a Scientologist, but I think I salvaged it. Yeah. And the only way I salvaged it, and frankly didn’t get put in handcuffs, was by applying Scientology, and also gra- this concept of granting being-ness to him. 

[01:15:36] Aaron: Mm-hmm. 

[01:15:37] Wil: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? And so he wasn’t doing that to me, and that’s what made me so angry.

[01:15:40] Wil: It offended my sensibilities. Yep. Yeah. Don’t, don’t be so disrespectful to people. You’re here to help people, and you, you made me wrong for this. You made me feel terrible for no reason. It was very introverting and embarrassing, right? Mm-hmm. It was just like, “Don’t be an idiot. Get out of here, you idiot,” basically is what he was saying.

[01:15:55] Wil: Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Don’t do that. That’s not okay.” And then I pulled the string, which is what I should [01:16:00] have done. The first time he said that, I should have asked the question Let me ask you a question. Do people ask you that all the time? And so I gave him s- gently, very gently- Uh-huh … I was like, “You know what you could do?

[01:16:09] Wil: You could just put a sign up here, and you could just point people to the sign.” 

[01:16:13] Brad: Mm-hmm. 

[01:16:14] Wil: Right? He still gets to be, like, kind of belligerent, and he still gets to make a… “Look, moron,” right? But he’s not insulting people, and he also doesn’t have to repeat himself 20 times a day. Yeah, yeah. Put a sign up that says, “This is for first class only.

[01:16:29] Wil: Business class lounges are throughout the airport.” Yeah. And the other thing is, once I got into the airport, there’s, like, eight business class lounges. Mm. This is, like, Lufthansa, the German airline. Wow. They’re all over the place. So yeah, he’s not gonna get out a map 15 times a day. That isn’t his job.

[01:16:43] Wil: Mm-hmm. He’s actually a cop there. He is… Because technically you’re on German soil, the way they had this set up. Mm. But the whole situation was just stupid. I also wanted to go into the first class lounge and like, “Do you know how miserable you’re making this poor bastard out here? Like, fix this.” Yeah. “Have a sign out here that’s Lufthansa branded.”

[01:16:58] Wil: Yeah. “I’ll pay for it.” Yeah. Like, get, [01:17:00] get one of those things you, you put up as a little, you know, just signage, right? Yeah. Like, “This is first class only. Passengers, business class lounges are throughout.” Easy. “Please continue on and go find one.” Problem solved, right? Yeah. And he’s just, and this poor guy’s just, like, at the end of his rope, 

[01:17:13] Brad: right?

[01:17:13] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:17:13] Wil: So I made it worse, but then I hopefully made it a little bit better. Good 

[01:17:16] Aaron: job. So freedom of speech isn’t a great thing. 

[01:17:18] Wil: So the- Yeah … yes, the whole point being the human right, and, and, and basically this young lady cop was like, “You need to…” Like basically, “Don’t be such a jerk American. Like, respect the countries that you’re visiting.”

[01:17:30] Wil: It’s like, I grew up here, guys. Yeah. And I said, “My friends and I used to insult each other all the time. Is this a new law?” She’s like, “No. If you’re friends…” And I was like, “Well, what does that even mean?” Mm. I end up looking it up, but, but I don’t like that law, by the way. Of course, of course. Yeah. That is not okay.

[01:17:44] Wil: No, 

[01:17:44] Brad: that’s a terrible law. 

[01:17:45] Wil: Of course it is. Yeah. And I’m just like, and it’s also, for me, it’s like an overreach, you know? Look at your history, folks. I don’t think this is the solution, right? Yeah. Yeah, not, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can’t just force people, because then they’re gonna bottle it down and bury it deep down on the inside until it explodes- 

[01:17:58] Brad: Until somebody gets [01:18:00] up on a pulpit-

[01:18:00] Brad: like 

[01:18:00] Wil: a volcano … and is like- Yeah. Exactly. Like, you wanna vent that stuff- 

[01:18:04] Brad: Yeah … I’m pretty 

[01:18:05] Wil: sure, right? 

[01:18:05] Brad: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

[01:18:06] Wil: Yeah. Anyway. 

[01:18:07] Brad: That short guy with the mustache. 

[01:18:08] Wil: Yeah. 

[01:18:08] Brad: Anyways. 

[01:18:08] Wil: Exactly. 

[01:18:09] Brad: Uh, okay, so question we ask every guest- 

[01:18:11] Wil: Okay … 

[01:18:12] Brad: I wanna ask you. 

[01:18:12] Wil: I’m ready. 

[01:18:13] Brad: In your own words, what is Scientology?

[01:18:18] Wil: Scientology is a set of factual information that you can apply to any question you could possibly ask about yourself, about life, about any area of life you’re having difficulty with, that gives you an answer that makes sense, perfect sense to you as an individual, and you can use that information to make things better, period.

[01:18:45] Wil: And it doesn’t re- it does- there’s no belief involved. Nobody else’s opinion is involved. It’s you and the, and truthful information that you can use to improve things. And that, and that’s, that’s all it’s ever been for me. [01:19:00] There’s also this culture and community around it, which is incredible- Mm-hmm … that I’ve fallen in love with.

[01:19:04] Wil: Yeah. There’s, there’s the community of Scientologists around the world. Yeah. There’s the leadership of our church. 

[01:19:10] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:19:10] Wil: There’s the, the TV network and all the materials that we create and that we share with the world. But fundament- fundamentally, Scientology itself, the, the body of research that this man did, is an engineer’s approach to the human spirit.

[01:19:26] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:19:26] Wil: And, and you can just look it up, and it took me years and years and years to trust it enough, and you don’t ever have to trust it. I don’t have to trust it now. You don’t have to, but you get to the point, I’m looking up something for the thousandth time- … and it is equally helpful the thousandth time.

[01:19:41] Wil: He has the benefit of my doubt at this point, right? Yeah. But it never asks you, uh, to pledge allegiance. You, you just use it for yourself. The, the fundamental, the core tenet, if it’s true for you, then it’s true, and if it isn’t, it isn’t. Yeah. And, and nobody’s gonna force you to believe something that isn’t true for you.

[01:19:58] Brad: Yeah. 

[01:19:59] Wil: Yeah. Amazing. That’s, [01:20:00] that’s what I love about it. 

[01:20:00] Brad: Beautiful. 

[01:20:01] Wil: Yeah. 

[01:20:01] Brad: Brother, thank you so much for coming on today. 

[01:20:03] Wil: It’s a pleasure. 

[01:20:04] Brad: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:20:05] Wil: It was fun, guys. 

[01:20:05] Brad: It was a lot of fun. Okay. And remember, don’t do nothing. 

[01:20:08] Aaron: Boom.